Central Heating advise please

[thethomases]

I'm ready to install my central heating system, and I'm considering either oil or LPG. I seem to be a little lost in the quagmire of choice, and asking around had only served to confuse even more. Some people have brought over English systems, either combi or system boilers and claim to have saved money. Others swear by French oil-fired boilers and so on and so on.

We have what will be a fairly large house, 4 bedrooms, a bathroom, two shower rooms and kitchen. I'm looking to heat a total of about 15 rads and have plenty of hot water, so will need a 30kw+ boiler. Can anyone reccommend a system that's not going to cost and arm and a leg?

[Thedunnes]

Have you considered Geothermal heating.  Sounds mad, but the principle is that you drill a bore hole or similar and pass the water from the ground through a heat exchange to extract the warmth from the water befroe returning it to ground.  Typically 1Kw of power would generate 4Kw of heat.  I jest not.

Remarkably well proven technology.  Look at:

http://www.avenir-energie.com/english/acceuil/frame.htm

A french firm (lyons based).

regards

Stephen (19)

[Will]

I noticed you asked this is the NW France section too, but I'll only reply here.

I don't think using English boilers etc would be a good idea, unless you are a qualified heating engineer - and even then that wouldn't count for anything in France if you are looking at a gas system.

Be aware that heating oil bought in France is a totally different product from that sold in Britain - British heating oil is kerosene based and much thinner. Some people say you can adjust English burners to run on French oil but others say this isn't very satisfactory and you need to clean and service the boiler very frequently.

Everybody I know who has LPG heating in France says it is very expensive to run, and as the vast majority of people who use this forum seem to be looking for a cheap solution it would probably rule out that option.

You don't say if it's a full time residence or a holiday home - particularly in the case of the latter don't rule out electric heating. There are some excellent systems in France which are very cheap and easy to install and very competitive in running costs too.

Our oil (i.e. French red diesel) fired central heating keeps me very warm and happy.

[Michael]

[quote]I'm ready to install my central heating system, and I'm considering either oil or LPG. I seem to be a little lost in the quagmire of choice, and asking around had only served to confuse even more. Som...[/quote]

Rads in uk are a lot cheaper.I would not recommend buying a boiler in uk the electrics are slightly different etc ,although they are a lot more expensive in france.Fit at least a 200ltr pressurised indirect hws cly for your services. uk megaflo are good and it comes with all safety valves and stats,pressure reducing set etc.but again more expensive than the french counter part.I would not recommend a combi in a large house or for multi bathroom shower rooms etc.There is no such beast as a cheap system only the correct one to suit each individual house. But for ease of installation you could use hep2o pipe, ideal for the diy  but again you must come off the boiler in copper for at least the first metre before connecting to plastic.. happy plumbing.

[Mpprh]

Hi

Just to say the geo thermic solution is worth investigating. I think it may be more expensive to install, but fuel savings make it a good long term option.

Doesn't seem to be used much in France, but I always heard good reports from people who converted to it in Sweden. It also is compact ........ one family told me they had gained another room in the basement once they had removed the boiler and fuel tank.

And if it works in a Swedish winter, it should cope with French weather.

Peter

[Stew]

Oil fired chauffage is well understood, much used and therefore there is good infrastructure for purchase, installation and maintenance.

Also called fioul, or mazout.

There is a huge choice of burners, including burners that can run fioul or gas (worth considering as crude oil prices are pushing up the price of heating fuel)

When pricing up, remembre its not just the cost of the chaudiere you have to consider (even chaudieres differe greatly in price depending on whether they are stainless steel, cast iron, CH only or CH and hot water) but also the cost of the burner, the fuel containers, the pump, the expansion vessel, the valves, the flue, the copper pipe etc. and of courese the radiators.

A lot of this, rads, copper piping etc will have to be purchased anyway, regardless of system.

I'm a plumber in the Charente, too far from you, and I've installed a few fuel based CH systems. I suppose like many plumbers I install what I know and feel comfortable with.

If you want more info, send me a mail and we can exchange numbers.

Stew

[arawire]

We have a woodburning central heating system at the moment (which is great... except I cannot cope with the thought of cutting 10 tonnes of wood this winter).  Our neighbour recommended that it could be replaced with a "gazole" based central heating system - that would cost about 1000E to run per year.

Does anyone know about these systems and whether they are efficient or not.

Does anyone also know of any could resources that compare the energy efficiency / cost of different types of fuel (eg gaz vs oil vs wood etc...)

 

Thanks

[Maddie]

We had a new oilfired combination hot water and central heating system fitted in April this year.  It currently heats 10 radiators (though was originally installed with 15 radiators in mind), 5 heated towel rails and hot water for 5 bathrooms and two kitchens.  The boiler itself is HUGE but also seems to be hugely efficient too.  The radiators heat up virtually instantly and the hot air comes out of them as if they were convectors as well as the rad itself heating up.  We have never been short of piping hot water even when all the bathrooms were in use.  It was not cheap to install though.  Most of the hidden pipework is actually plastic and only the exposed pipes are in copper.  Everyone told us that gas was expensive to run which is why we went for oil.  We have not regretted it for a moment so far and I would recommend it to anyone. 

 

 

[I1]

I have quite a high volume to heat and use a rather old boiler powered by LPG. It costs a lot to run in winter, but I have no comparison to other fuels in teh house so cannot really say it's more/less expensive than anything else. Fortunately the boiler has one of those "external burner" devices that you can change for a burner that uses different fuel, so I have been thinking about cost saving possibilities.

Some time ago somewhere I saw comparitive prices for the different fuel sources for 1kW of power (in France). My (uninformed) thought is that however you get your heat (for water/central heating) 1kW is the same (i.e. 1kW oil heat is the same as 1kW LPG heat which is the same as 1kW electric heat, etc.). This, ignoring practical considerations (storage, availability of town gas, etc.) the cheapest solution would be the one with the lowest cost per kW. If anybody has those fignures (or knows where they are) I would certainly appreciate them.

[Babnik]

Theoretically for geothermal heating, for every 4 kw of heat you pay(I suppose electricity) 1 kw...therefore sounds like unless there is another fuel which 1/4 the price of electricity, Geothermal might work out the cheapest! (Solar might be cheaper, but I'm not sure how practical that is for a full heating system!)

[I1]

I guess geothermal doesn't require a south facing roof and (what some people consider) unsightly pannels on display.

When I lived in the UK a neighbour who was considering options told me that there are two "styles" of geothermal.  One where the bit in the ground goes predominantly down (i.e. you dont have loads of land), the other where the bit in the ground is more horizontal and thus covers more land area.

I would be very interested if anybody has any prices (together with the power output of the associated system).

Also, do installers allow you to dig the preparation holes/land works (to keep the costs down) ?

Also, if you are getting 4kW got the price of 1kW (electricity), is electricity less that 4 times the price of the cheapest fuel (per kW).

[Alexis]

The M&T for November has a supplement on chauffage.

They give the following figures:

Electricity 10.6 centimes kw

Wood 1.7 centimes kw

Oil 4.69 centimes kw (going up)

GPL 8.45 centimes kw

Gas 4.06 centimes kw

Solaire is marked as free but I believe the installation is more expensive.  There is an article about it.

There is a lot of info in the booklet but my computer is on a go slow and it would take until midnight to type it out.  Sorry.

[mona]

hallo, really like the idea of geothermal heating.  has anyone actually had the system installed?  if so would you be willing to tell us the ups [and downs if any]now you're using it and share how much it cost to install?

[La vieille]

We have a "pompe à chaleur" which works like the back of a fridge in reverse.   It does mean we have a huge great bank of pipes in the garden - about 12 ft long by 4 ft wide by 4ft high.   They are green so they don't stand out much.   It's wonderful when you turn the heating on, the pipes in the garden ice up, even on a warm day.   The cost is that you get 3kw of heat for every 1kw of electricity.   It seems very effective.

Don't know that much about it really, we only bought the place in August but the heating system was recommended by the estate agent and the previous owners.   Have checked it out on the internet and it seems quite good.

[zeb]

As Alexis said in another thread somewhere all sorts of central heating systems - solar, oil, gaz, electricity (don't know about geowhatsit (takes acres of ground and is tres cher to install) are covered in a pullout section of this month's Maison et Travaux.

I am sorted (have oil fired and a huge woodburner) so if anyone in the UK wants to beg me for my supplement send me a PM and I will post it!!

regards......helen

edit: oooops sorry Alexis!! Your posting is in this thread! This St Emilion is very good hic!

 

[Alexis]

Alcoholic!  I will check if the supplement is on line.

[Hegs]

There is a "Cuisines & Bains" hors serie called "Guide de Chauffage", cost EUR 5, 100 pages, which is more in-depth than the M&T pullout, covering insulation, tax rebates, grants, lots of graphs and a section on each type of energy including solar and geothermal. Recommended!

 

 

[mona]

[quote]We have a "pompe à chaleur" which works like the back of a fridge in reverse. It does mean we have a huge great bank of pipes in the garden - about 12 ft long by 4 ft wide by 4ft high. They are gr...[/quote]

please could you tell us how many square meters your pompe de chaleur is heating?  was any of the paperwork associated with the cost of installation handed on to you and would that give and indication of how much installation cost?

sorry, i know these questions are intrusive but it would be very helpful to have the information.

[La vieille]

"please could you tell us how many square meters your pompe de chaleur is heating?  was any of the paperwork associated with the cost of installation handed on to you and would that give and indication of how much installation cost?"

It's 140 square metres.   Don't know how much it cost to install but I have the name of the people who overhauled the pump a couple of years ago, so you could ask them if you were interested.  

[Babnik]

I've just found a study on www.industrie.gouv.fr, that compares average prices for domestic heating :

Prices are for 100kwh

 

Fioul Domestique                   4.69€

Propane                               8.45€

Charbon                               5.61€

Bois                                    1.75€

Electicite                            11.06€

Gaz Distribue                        3.82€

 

While there are no prices for Geothermal, if you go with the principle of 1 kw in for every 4 kw out, you get 2.77€. All quite complicated though when you get into different tariffs for electricity.

While fuel looks pretty good compared to both electricity and propane, it's price is linked to that of oil, and that's only going in one direction...up!!

Steve

[Owens88]

I have read this thread with great interest.

I already have a radiator system installed but need a new boiler in my holiday gite in the Pyrenees Orientales. I was going for oil (there is a tank already) but have been introduced to an alternative.

The alternative is an electric boiler to feed the 7/8 radiators. It seems to run on off-peak electricity and claims to be efficient. I have not encountered these in the UK.

However I am a bit wary as it may be something that is good for an 'always' on location (e.g. a ski chalet)  but hopelessly uneconomic for the odd autumn/spring 'quick burst' of heat.

For instance it says that the boiler can also be a radiator - so it cannot be simultaneously storing the heat can it ?

Does anybody have any experiences of these ?

Thanks in advance.

[I1]

I guess, depending on where you are and thus how cold it might get in winter, if the property spends quite a bit of time empty a traditional "water circulating" type central heating system might be more costly to run in that a frost-stat may keep running up the boiler to prevent pipes freezing.

Maybe others would know if this is a trivial cost over a winter or does actually impact the running costs (particularly if the house is empty for longish periods over the winter).  Also, is a minimal heat in property desirable to keep materials and fabric in better condition (i.e. less damp) or is the frost stat impact too small for this to be affected ?

[Owens88]

Yes the point about frost stat is another consideration.

FWIW I think I would have the need either way as both would have water circulation somehow. But your question has quite general vailidity I think.

[jrhartley]

I think that the figures about fuel efficiency are very old from the French government site – I have run some numbers on a spreadsheet and it seems that the cost of fioul vs propane / butane is only about 15% cheaper with oil at the current price.  Natural gas is a lot cheaper than delivered gas.  Electric is obviously off the scale unless you're in a very well insulated shoe box, visiting for one weekend a year.

 

I'm also getting some prices for chaudieres - what I'm interested to learn is why a combi boiler is no good for multiple bathroom households - surely if the flow rate is good (14L/minute, etc) - won't that be fine?  What do people thing about chaudieres with ballons built in - what are the advantages there?

Aside from the difference in pipes, is it really a huge hassle to get a boiler from the UK and install it here, then get it certified?  After all, many of the big manufacturers just brand their systems differently in different countries, but the guts of them are largely the same? 

 

Interested in any views.  Incidentally - if anyone wants a spreadsheet to evaluate annual running costs of propane, fioul and electricity based on a KW heating / hot water requirement, PM me - I did this the other night.

[I1]

I live alone and have a massive boiler with a 160L hot water tank. For me it is very wasteful to keep 160L of hot water hot all the time so I am having a Chauffe bain fitted (with a divet valve/switch so I can run either for hot water). I still trying to get details of exactly which model has been quoted for but the total quote (supply, installation, etc. for a propane chauffe bain is around 1000€. Of that the chauffe bain is 480€.