Plans

[Amsurtees]

Hello!

 I have a farm house in Le Vendee that I have started to renovate. However I am now at a stage that I need professional advise about converting my grenier into bedrooms and bathrooms. I also want plans for converting an outbuilding. I would like plans that tell me what needs to be done, in what order and by whom so that I can then do some of the work and get professionals in to do the jobs I cant do. Who should I contact to get such plans. I have previously asked a builder to quote for work and then been told that he doesn't do that particular type of work and I should have contacted a plasterer! I am slightly apprehensive now about just phoning local people from my yellow pages. Any help welcome! Thanks and a Happy New Year.  Anne

[Val_2]

If I read this correctly it seems you want plans drawn up for your renovation but want to do some of the work yourself. Firstly NO registered builder in France is going to draw plans for you and then not carry out the WHOLE conversion using his workers/sub contractors as there is the question of Résponsabilité Deçennale and Civile for which you would make it nul and void if you did some of the work which interacts with the builder's part. Plans would cost money and the best thing is to get a local architect to do some for you but it will be expensive. You will need to submit proper plans anyway for the Permis de Construire on the barn as you are changing it's use and over 170sqm an architect is required anyway by law. As regards a plasterer taking on the whole job this is unheard of here.

[bedders]

Just for future reference as we are still in the uk

is it possible/legal to draw up ones own plans for a conversion, and then get them certified by a local registered architect before submission? Obviously for a fee. The reasoning is, ideas change over a period, and i wouldn't wish to pay 3 times for the same thing. ( i have been a draughtsman for over 30yrs)

 

Many thanks, Bedders 

[Iceni]

Bedders - highly unlikely that an architect would sign off yr plans. We had to use a French architect (>170 m2) who spent most of our first meeting ensuring that I understood this.

The p de c application and subsequent modificatifs prior to those going over the 170m2 limit were all very amateurish DIY jobs and we had no trouble with DDE or Maire. But interpretation of rules may vary from place to place so our experience may not be relevant.

John

not

[bedders]

Thanks, John not Di,

 

I didn't really believe things could be that simple.

 

Bedders 

[Piprob]

The advice you have already received is wise.

However, you can at least try to find a sympathetic builder. It depends how cheeky you want to be! Our builder (and things may well be rather different in the SE France - our neck of the woods) would have been quite happy to organise the drawings we needed. He was taken aback at our first meeting, when I passed him the plans we had drawn ourselves, and very happy explain materials and methods where he thought we needed to make corrections. We found the same willingness to help when we took them into the Marie without an appointment and, at that early stage precious little builders' vocabulary! "Who's the builder going to be?" we were asked. I gave the builders' name with my fingers crossed, and added "probably". "Oh," the building engineer replied, visibly relaxing. "It'll be fine then. He runs a serious business."

I think we ran straight back to the builder and booked him there and then. Couldn't do better than those credentials, we thought. And this proved to be right.

If your project is definately 170 square metres of living area then an architect is compulsory, but otherwise - well, your builder may know someone prepared to draw some plans, even if you don't give all the work to him. Don't give-up before having a go. You never know ... ...

 

[Paulhogan]

Hi Bedders

We were recently in the same position as you needing plans for work over 170 square metres and it is possible to find an architect who will sign off your drawings, and make your application for a p de c. Not all architects will, but our immobilier asked around for us and found an obliging guy. His fees are still not cheap, but compared to him doing all the work we have saved a considerable amount of money, over 3000 euros.

If you have been a draughtsman you should have no problems producing drawings to the required standard. The drawings I produced were fairly basic, only showing proposed room layouts, etc. but have been accepted by the DDE.

[Piprob]

Paul is right. I drew for a living many moons ago, and within days of discovering Microsoft's drawing tool, Visio professional, had learned all I needed to produce plans, elevations, sections, bills of materials etc. to a high standard - good fun in itself. Great if you know how to use Auto Cad, but Visio is so uncomplicated by comparison - a real cynch. (Sorry - can you tell I'm something of a Visio Professional fan?)

[bedders]

Hi,

Apologise if i hijacked another persons post, but there was some relevance to the original.

I have used Autocad and microstation in the past, don't know visio professional (yet) but personally, give me a pencil any day.

Thanks all for your input. 

[Val_2]

Bedders. We have a friend who is the local architect and everytime we ask about work he says that he really prefers the old days before computers and that drawing with a pencil is so much more fulfilling. My husband does drawings for clients and by hand too as he is not computer literate being a tradesman, and we still have some Letraset left which our local DDE seems to approve of as well. Incidentally I didn't realise Letraset no longer existed as I tried to buy some here last year and they looked at me in the stationers as though I had gone made.Can Anyone tell me when it was discontinued please.

[Piprob]

Val, I think a may have some in my attic left over from the stone age. Shall I dig it out and send it to you if its any good still?

And I too like the pencil. Trouble is, these days the paper might not survive all my corrections. The old yeux aren't quite as good as they once were. And computers do encourage you spend too much time on unnecessary "bells and whistles". They also pander to your worst instincts for perfectionism. On my project I am constantly noticing things are not exactly "as drawn", and like an idiot I change the drawing! Hey ho.

[Poolguy]

I went through 6 years of Architecture at Uni - up all the night fighting to keep the Rotrings and the pencils working to get plans to the crit sessions in the morning, only to find out from Colleagues that some little thing that you have fogotten will cause your Architectural marvel to be torn to shredds by Professors. (Merde)

Personally, I thank the gods of Computers and the God AUTOCAD who make such impossible things easy. I wouldn't go back to those dark days for all the tea an biscuts in England. Neither would my clients who, to a man (and woman) have a passion for 'change of mind' when they see their dream expressed in mm and line. Easy to do on Computer - 'back to the drawing board' - with a pencil.

So sorry to be all modern Guys but Computer has this business and the Graphics business by the nuts. The pencil and Letraset is dead, may it rest in peace.

 

Andrew

[Piprob]

That struck a chord with me Andrew. Are you old enough to remember using a Caliper pen - the ones we loaded with ink by hand each time we drew a line, where you turned a screw to adjust line width? They often brought me to the verge of tears with frustration. I'd be drawing on parchment or cartridge paper, get nearly to the end of a masterpiece, then make an ink-spill the size of a plate. Ugh!

But your point about 'changes of mind' is the most telling. Folk often don't want what they asked for, but don't recognise this until they see the plan in front of them. And who is ever happy to pay the price for the hours drawings take to produce - even on computer, particularly if one has perfectionist tendencies?

However, I still produce drawings for other people and deal with planning application stuff, mainly because I enjoy it so much. But in no way is it ever going to be a commercial proposition. Have you met anyone who can make it pay? I doubt it.

[Poolguy]

Hey there Piprob

Yep I remember with horror those horrible caliper pens... worst cursed things ever to be offered to man kind. The inventor (who must have been back in the 12th century) must had had quite a malicious streak in him (or maybe it was a her - makes more sense really). Rotrings were bad enough but those calipers were a disease, repeating pencils were OK but unfortunately not permanent enough - no wonder most designers look a little sick most of the time.

 

I know what you mean about Clients and changes. It happens quite a lot to us all. The only solution I've found is either take a firm hand (daddy style)lay down the rules and stick to them or don't have a client at all, that is; do the job yourself for yourself. That's not so much fun though.

 

But I must say, the computer is a blessing, so long as the rotten thing doesn't crash and scramble the file... if that see para one.

 

Andrew

[brian-limousin<P><IMG src="http:forums.livingfrance.comimagesline.gif"><BR>brian-limousin<P><P>When you are in a hole - stop digging<BR><A class=authorlink href="http:" target=_blank><A><BR><P>]

Must admit that Autocad is god!!  The ability to make changes, and the ability to layer drawings saves HOURS.  I must say, though, that it is nice now and again to produce hand drawings and visuals, and some clients do prefer the "hand drawn" look.  The main benefit that I find with autocad, is that it takes the effort out of the actual drawing, and allows more time and thought available for designing.

[Poolguy]

AMEN

I say AMEN to that Brian Limousin.

You tell em Boss.

 

Andrew

[Piprob]

Hello Brian. It brings back memories speaking about these things. The real downside to Visio Professional as a drawing tool is that you can't give a line a third dimension. So its back to what we learned at college when it comes to 'throwing-up' elevations. And I have often wondered whether, for small scale building, it really is necessary to have grid references for everything, and to pin-point an intersection down to a micro millimetre. Never seen seen a builder setting-out with a microscope in my whole life.

[Poolguy]

yep

I guess that we draw these puppies as accurate as can be because we can!!

I don't know that its entirely necessary to get a building 'poill poile'- it doesn't make it easier to live in, as a long as it keeps the rain out.

I live in a 16th century stable and not one of the corners is square - its like something out of an Esher drawing, but its still cozy.

Unless your client is a Pharaoh and you absolutely need the solstice sunrise through your bedroom window or the northern star illuminating your effigy in the front room, I guess close enough is good enough. Is this heresy? (I pay homage to the God Autocad and beg forgiveness for my impure thoughts..)

Did anyone here the one about the sky scraper in NY which was built 6" over the boundary of a little old lady's building. woooops!!!Somebody got it wrong.

It became the most expensive 6" of land in history as I recall.

Andrew