French Beams Again!

[Cat71]

I'm just hacking off plaster which is on top of lathe off an old beam. This stretches across the breath of the house and is in quite an elegant room.

It's in reasonable condition except for the odd bit of worm which is superficial and lots of nail holes. It has been stained brown in the past but is not saturated so my hopes are high.

I'm going to treat it first with anti-all and after that am not sure. Do I stain, just oil or what? I want it to remain fairly natural but not too rustic.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Catherine

www.pictureburgundy.com

[Springer]

After cleaning, give it several light coats with warm linseed oil. Allow this to dry then buff with a lint-free cloth. This will protect and show the beams natural colour with a slight sheen.

 

John 

[Poolguy]

As I've posted before on this forum I recommend Tung oil for this job an not Linseed oil as posted before. Ther reason is that Linseed oil will not harden and so you will find it needing more work over time to maintain the same 'protection'.

 

Tung oil is once ... for ever.

 

It will also protect against the effects of moiture, condensation oe what ever.  But what ever you do.. don't use lacqurer or varnishes... they are toxic.. when you apply them and from there after.

 

Andrew

[Springer]

Hi, not sure I agree with the above, If you buy Boiled linseed oil it will have a drying agent added. Tung oil will not have this and will take an age to dry between coats and then may leach out when you have thought it is dry. If you want to go down the route of using tung oil than a good "finishing" oil is what you need. This will give the finish of a tung oil but has a drying/hardening agent added. Having said this it will offer no greater protection than linseed oil.

John

 

[Poolguy]

Springer

I am puzzeled about you comments. They are wrong. I am not sure from your post whether you have any expericne with either oil.

The project for whcih I have been using Tung oil (3 other oils included) including oiling floors in 4 countries have left me with many satisified customers. The reason is that Tung oil is the ONLY oil which dries hard. And you don't need successive coats if you saturate the wood in the first place. Linseed oil does not dry hard, it will only prodcue a plastic state and so will eventually leech out of the timber. The use of an accelerators or a thinners such as polychlorinated Biphenyls as are extremetly toxic and in some cases carcenogenic. So what you are doing in the above post where some person asking for expert advise - you are  recommending a class 1 carcenogen (no not the oil the accelerator).

The range of Tung oil products avaialbe on the market today nearly always has naturaly accelerators (Check the tin). They dont need much else to be an excellent protective coating. The Chinese have been using it to protect their wooden ships for more the 2000 years. Human have still not invented a better product in my opinion.

Andrew

[Alcazar]

What would I look for in France, ie: what's it marketed as please?

Alcazar

[Poolguy]

Alcazar

Its all been covered in previous thread at:

http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=285&MessageID=145891&TopicPage=1

 

If you need more information from me for special applications please send me PM.

Thanks

Andrew

[Cat71]

Wow!

Thanks for the scientific explanation. However, I'm a little confused about accelerators. What are they? Couldn't quite catch the drift but I may be suffering from lead poisoning as I've hacked into so much old plasterwork, paint work etc that my brain cells my be affected. If not lead then the red wine syndrome.

I'm sure I used to use linseed oil on my horse's saddle many years ago. I've also used it to wipe across bricks to emphasise the colour.

I'm wiling to try anything and will look into Tung oil.

 

Thanks,

Catherine

[Chris Head]

Cat, accelerators are additives, basically they speed up the drying process of oils and produce a 'harder' therefore more protective surface.

I totally agree with Springer, neat Tung oil takes an age to dry between coats, this is based on my experience. Hendo adds secret accelerators to Tung oil that quickly dry it, the rest of us will have to struggle with what we have learned, or buy the services of someone who has secret ingredients!

Happy oiling!

Chris

[Dave&Olive]

PLEASE NO NO NO NOT ANOTHER TUNG OIL POSTING

        IF YOU CAN`T BUY IT IN FRANCE WHY USE IT

                    DAVE

[Punch]

[quote]PLEASE NO NO NO NOT ANOTHER TUNG OIL POSTING

Well said that man!

While I appeciate the warnings from the poster about dangers of certain chemicals, If the correct proceedures and protective clothing and proper precautions are taken, I am sure these "carcogenic" products other products are not more dangerous than items such as;

MDF dust, Wood preservatives, paints and paint strippers, electric sanders, lime and lime based renders, in fact anything involved in renovating a FRENCH HOUSE. Some of the bottled chemicals on sale here in French supermarkets would give you far more trouble that an accelerator in a vitrificater parquet; (acide hydrochloric, acetone, etc etc.)

Paul

 

[Poolguy]

I never cease to be amazed how some will trivialise issues, which affect us all.

 

“Don’t worry” they say, “you have to die of something”

 

Well I guess that they previous two posters will be condoning the practice of all and any manufactures that use products, which are lethal.

 

“That’s OK boys, bring it on… it looks great”

 

Well I guess that your part you’ve been spared the experience of seeing anyone dying of cancer…... I have not.

 

The year before last my business partner’s Wife died of a brain tumour. It was horrible.. A once lovely vibrant woman who didn’t smoke or drink and was even devout and loved in the community was dead in 6 months despite constant Kemo therapy. Her God was of no help either. What was the culprit?. Nobody knows. The family was devastated to loose their mother. Last year I learned that my business partner himself has been diagnosed with Lymphoidema. Coincidence?????? He’s undergoing massive therapy and out of danger for the moment.

 

What is his profession you might ask… He’s a builder.

 

My point is that we all know that there are a million things in this world, which might kill us,… but you need to know that lots and lots of them are in your house. They don’t have a big effect in themselves perhaps. But the cumulative effect is a much more significant. The tragedy of the Family above is a wake up call for me and consequently I will continue to do everything I can to make informed decisions on the environment I choose to live and work in. Those of you who don’t care are of course entitled to remain asleep or secure in ignorance of the issues. That is your right. But there are those of us in the world who will be watchful and continue ask questions, that is our right.

If for example a product is Banned by the WHO, EPA,EAPC then I will  presume that they have their reasons. I will take their advice and avoid it. The fact that the paint companies still use such products is not in the presumption that it is safe only that the relevant agencies lack the teeth to prosecute effectively. For my part I will do my best to promote ‘safer’ solutions over those, which are clearly hazardous. For if Consumers are too lazy or lack the mental agility to do their own research then they must either use their wallet to gain security or own the consequences and along with it , the responsibility.

My research is looking into other topics along with paint options: Pest control; Dust free insulation; Radon gas emissions; Water and air quality; Damp proofing & condensation; Fire safety; Sustainable heating systems.

Solutions to all of these issues are available in most every modern country including France. But they are not usually as obvious as your average Brico or corner shop until they have a demand to provide it. That’s the point, Consumers have to demand what they want only then will retailers stock it.

[Iceni]

Hendo

I think that the problem we are all having is that 'you' have the secret of the wooden universe and you and only you can supply and use this magic potion. Now I am not having a go (well perhaps I am), but to be honest I to am starting to wait for the arrival of Tung Oil in every wooden post. If your product could be bought by us mere renovators we would be able to use this safe product and 'perhaps' be a little safer BUT many people undertaking renovations do not have the money to employ someone to do the work for them. Perhaps what we are seeing is ?non? blatant advertising for your business...

I went upstairs yesterday and found that the beams are being painted with 'carcinogenic' compounds, am I worried, well out of our four parents, three died of cancer, two from smoking, one from being scared senseless of doctors (ie left it too late through no fault but their own). The other died of the effects of WW2 30+ years after the war and of all of them, his was the worst and totally ruined life. I know publicans who have got cancer in their 40's (husband and wife) but smoking is still allowed in public houses. I come from the age when Flit (DDT) was sprayed everywhere, I slept in a bed where Keatings powder was sprinkled under the sheets each time they were changed (DDT). Every time I went to buy new shoes I, like all children of my age stood with my feet in an X-ray machine so that they could be checked to make sure they fitted correctly - and guess what, I am still here.

We all take risks in everything we do, living in a wood burning area ups the risks for all sorts of respiratory diseases but many, you and I included see it as environmentally friendly - perhaps for someone with asthma it is not. It all has to be taken and balanced and you offering a 'safe' solution that none of us can have is just starting to grate a bit.

Not John but

[zeb]

Andrew - I can't read your post! Are you working for an optician as well?

[steve@sarah]

DaveandOlive and Iceni sum up a lot of what I had to say!

Back to the problem of the beams..... I've always liked the effect given by rubbing in [to the wood] boiled linseed oil to cleaned wood esp oak. If you are not sure what effect you want, why not a spare piece of the same wood and try out the diff. options, then you will see which you like best without running the risk of finnishing the job and finding out you hate it. This works for me anyway.

As for health issues, follow the saftey directions on the tin!  

[Poolguy]

I guess it’s conclusive then.

I’ve been told.

I am guilty of antisocial thoughts, in short – ‘thought crimes’.

 

4 out of what must be 5,000 people do not wish to hear about ‘the product we must not mention’.

 

Well I’ve learnt my lesson and certainly I will not be mentioning ‘the product we must not mention’ again as I don’t want to be beaten up by ‘THE BIG RED LETTERS’ again, really once is scary enough. Therapy is my only hope.

 

I guess that misguidedly, I have been obsessing about improving things, which is TOATALY UNACCEPTABLE, ANITSOCIAL BEHAVIOUR.

 

I now realise that I need readjustment to accept that the way things are is the way things are, and that that is the way everyone wants them. Unless I can give everyone access to this new invention I have discovered in secret – a search engine, then I must not be saying anything at all.

 

I am foolish I know. But help is at hand, I do know of a small but significant behaviour readjustment college in the more socally acceptable Llanymddyfri deep in the heart land of God’s own country were I might learn more acceptable obsessions – perhaps Rugby.

 

Now there is a topic we can all chat all day about.

 

Andrew

 

[SC]

'Hi, All--

 

I often see references to tung oil as a safe or non-toxic wood finish. However, there is evidence that tung oil is a health hazard. It appears to act as a promoter of the Epstein-Barr virus. That is, many people carry the virus with no apparent symptoms, but when the virus is activated it causes mononucleosis and chronic fatigue syndrome. Tung oil compounds also may act as promoters of cancer. Below are four abstracts of MEDLINE journal articles illustrating tung oil hazards. The last one is a bit dense, but proposes a model explaining how phorbol esters in tung oil could promote cancer. I’d really like to see some more exploration of these issues but in the meantime would urge caution in using tung oil.........................'

 

Out of interest I tried typing 'tung oil cancer'  into Google. The thread above at http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/greenbuilding/1998-October/011146.html 

was one of 14600 replies.

 

seems like nothing's safe.

sc

 

 

[Dave&Olive]

[quote]I guess it’s conclusive then. I’ve been told.

Property Renovations FAQs say oak  beams

then everyone who keeps posting this question because they are probable to idle to do a search on the subject Hendo would not be obliged to help them........

       now Hendo about our  GRAND SLAM

      and the english wooden spoon

            bread of heaven

        I put on 40 years in 40 mins on saturday what a turn around never ever seen a game like that the lads, oh the lads bet there is no knight hood for them after all they are Welsh !!!!

              dave in wrexham n.wales soon in 79

[Dave&Olive]

Hendo I really did not mean to upset a fellow Taff

If the moderator would let Hendo put a posting in the

what am I doing wrong when I post " with a quote " it fills the page  and knocks off the first few lines.....

              dave

[Poolguy]

SC

If your quoting someone its customary to use the “quote” marks and to attribute the quote.

 

Nevertheless, after reading those articles, which you linked, I can read nothing of any concern at this time. Any link with cancer or the promotion of cancer has not been proven nor is there even a hypothesis offered. 

 

The Epstein Barr Virus is one of those ‘common as dirt’ bugs that nearly everyone has like Herpes Simplex (cold sore), both are commonly transmitted through saliva by kissing. The fact that there was a link suspected (in one study only) between the virus existent in the soil under a group of trees and therefore extant in the extract is not conclusive of anything. To gain even a mild dose from oil (assuming it was present in the oil which I don’t believe is the case) you would have to drink it. That’s not what its for.

 

Besides, the above pales into the minute insignificance compared the commonly accepted malignancy of the CLASS 1 carcinogen status enjoyed by the accelerator products used by most paint companies. The big problem is that most of the ‘safer’ alternatives either have a colour or darken the wood as a result. The only ‘clear’ alternatives available and cheap are nasty. Naturally, the commercial imperative of the conglomerate is to go with ‘cheap and nasty’. Malignancies especially in children can be caused by breathing particulates, or absorbed through the skin; neoplastoma is occasionally fond in children of parents who commonly use these products. There are alternatives.

 

Dave me old mukka

 

I appreciate the camaraderie but sadly I’m not Welsh.  Similar is my interest in Rugby. But I am Celtic/Norse none the less

 

My reference to the place in Wales was more a throwback to headier days when I understand on or near that site Lu of the Silver arm, Great warrior of the Tuatha De Dannen was abashed by satirical poetry from the Bard of the Fir Bolg King which later resulted in the Battle of Moytura. I apologise for the misrepresentation, I am also confused about the quotes thing and the missing first lines…??

 

Andrew

[Cat71]

So I won't ask about woodworm killer or dry rot treatment then?

Cat

[Poolguy]

Best not Kat

Might enrage the masses further.

Gee I'm glad that the formatting has got back to normal... Wonder what is causing the distortion on the last page. Hope its not me.... or something I said... opps!

Have you got a lot then Kat...... em

Woodworm and so forth?

Andrew

[Dave&Olive]

think it was my post with a "quote" that caused problem

 as regards woodworm do you want to buy some???  

       got a few millon we have got to unload

      anyone want some woodworms please contact us they are free to a good home

 wonder if I should post this in the pet section ????

ps we have a date 22nd march looks like the welsh d-day invasion day

      dave

[Poolguy]

Cat (sorry for the 'K')

Thought I should be more constructive.

If the rot and the woodworm are in your beam you have mercifully few options. Replace it, would be one of my favourites.

Taking care to burn the old beam. Don't leave it lying around.

There is no point to try to treat a piece of wood which might be structurally undermined. Most of the applied treatments are not effective as you have to poison EVERY hole where the lil critters might be hiding. If you miss one or two they will lay eggs and they are off again. The net effect is that your introducing nasty poison into your house for little effect. Bad idea.

Rot is rot and can't be reversed. You can slow it down by drying the beam to below 14% moisture content which will require a constant relative humidity of under about 45% (very dry). Its very hard if your beam is large as the centre will NEVER dry no matter what you do. I have cut open beams which have been air drying for 400 years and they are as fresh on the inside as the day the were cut. This wood is usually protected by bark or a 'case hardening' process which take over in the 'skin' of the dressed timber. It prevents the egress of bound moisture.

If you need more help, or my points do not cover your situation then I'll have another go if you give me more information.

Andrew

[Cat71]

Impossible to replace beams Andrew as the house is a timber framed construction. I think the worms in the beams are here to stay! We've got plenty of wood so I don't mind. The beams will certainly out live me!

It's the worms in the furniture that are worrying me. We bought a few bits of old furniture (Henri's) and they are riddled! At the moment haven't the time to spend evicting them.

Any quick methods apart from DDT (only joking)?

Thanks,

Catherine

www.pictureburgundy.com