Hank Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hi all.We have just found a good rural property in a quiet hamlet and have put in a low offer which has been considered and initially rejected. The property has a stone/slate adjoining barn which would convert this modest cottage into a good sized home for a permanent move. I appreciate that permission may be required (and the tax increased) but if the barn cannot be carefully restored as an extension then it is likely to be a white elephant and we would be better looking for something with a few more rooms and less DIY.Rather than relying on the French agent's 'relaxed' advice, what is the best way to confirm our options before we go any further? Would a call to the Mairie suffice or do we need something more formal? (Other half is fluent in French).We have not yet had sight of any reports so are expecting the septic tank to be another factor in the negotiation.Any advice gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It is possible that you have already made your first mistake but given the offer has not been accepted, no harm done.1. Establish that the cottage is actually legally habitable. If it has not been used for some time it may be that it is no longer designated in the local plans as a habitation. Just because it looks like a habitation does not mean that it is.2. Establish that you will be permitted to change the use of the barn from an agricultural building to a habitable building. This may not be possible on a number of grounds - designation of plots within the commune, lack of a fire hydrant within the necessary distance, proximity to an historic monument - which might just be a pile of stones in a field .For both of these ask at the mairie (local town hall).3. Establish how big your converted property would be after conversion. If above 170 sq m habitable space (not floor area nor footprint) you will need an architect to sign off the plans for submission. Habitable space is slightly tricky and you should check out what is and is not included using a search of this site and perhaps others. Look at what utilities are available on site - electricity (and if so what level of power - can it be increased? because you will almost certainly need to do so.) Single or triple phase? Water? Sewerage of septic tank? You might have neither!! Does the septic tank conform? Can it be adapted? Cost of replacement? Access - do you have free access and does anyone else have access across the property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 What Andy says is spot on really. When you buy in France nobody does a 'search' for you, thats your job. In a case like this the mayor can offer an opinion and may indeed know the history of the place but the real people, the ones that can say yes or no, are the DDE. The mayor does not issue planning permision although he/she can object. There will be a DDE office in your local large town and they are well worth a visit. You need to know the 'plot' number which you can get from the mayors office. Armed with that you should be able to get all the information you need from the DDE, if not then they will be able to tell you where to go to next. The DDE will also be able to tell you what they may accept as 'planning' permision i.e. what you can do with the barn. I used the word 'may' because untill you apply you won't really know so all they can do is give a strong indication of what they deem acceptable or not. In two 'projects' I have been involved with I have found our local DDE lady to be very helpful. By sticking to her 'sugestions' myself and one other have had no problem getting what we wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Many thanks to both for your detailed and helpful responses.Encouragingly, we received a very prompt email reply from the Maire who simply said we need a permit. From other threads it seems that the next step is to ask the vendor to obtain a CU and then find out whether DDE's advice with regard to modifications is prohibitive. Of course, any subsequent contract must be conditional on obtaining appropriate permissions.I am tempted to start designing a comprehensive flowchart for the whole process. The first question would be: Have you done this before? Answering 'No' takes you to "Rent". Answering 'Yes' takes you to the question: "Are you insane?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommier Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I don't know the answer to this, but it's something to bear in mind.Would the conversion of the barn need to comply to RT2012 (BBC) standard? If it would, could this be achieved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 [quote user="Hank"]Many thanks to both for your detailed and helpful responses. Encouragingly, we received a very prompt email reply from the Maire who simply said we need a permit. From other threads it seems that the next step is to ask the vendor to obtain a CU and then find out whether DDE's advice with regard to modifications is prohibitive. Of course, any subsequent contract must be conditional on obtaining appropriate permissions. I am tempted to start designing a comprehensive flowchart for the whole process. The first question would be: Have you done this before? Answering 'No' takes you to "Rent". Answering 'Yes' takes you to the question: "Are you insane?"[/quote]Actually Hank the most common advice given by most on this forum is to rent your UK house and rent over here in the area you intend to put your roots down in. A 12 month rental will give you a day to day experience of living in France plus plenty of opportunity to find your new home and get a better understand of what you need to do and how to do it. That way you don't burn any bridges if you decide it's not for you. You might also meet some fellow Brits who can help you out with the process by telling you what they might do different if they started again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 [quote user="Pommier"]I don't know the answer to this, but it's something to bear in mind. Would the conversion of the barn need to comply to RT2012 (BBC) standard? If it would, could this be achieved?[/quote]From what was discussed in another thread I believe it would be a requirement now. If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected. [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Pommier"]I don't know the answer to this, but it's something to bear in mind. Would the conversion of the barn need to comply to RT2012 (BBC) standard? If it would, could this be achieved?[/quote]From what was discussed in another thread I believe it would be a requirement now. If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected. [;-)][/quote]That's my understanding to, so wait to be corrected.Maybe cheaper to bulldoze the lot build a passivhaus and face it with the original stone so it looks right. That's what I would do if our place fell down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Don't forget that there are also restrictions as to how close humans can live to livestock barns. As you haven't mentioned how close these buildings will be to other buildings, I thought I would mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Ah! Thanks for that - another question for the flowchart...The stone building is a typical half house/half barn under a single, pitched slate roof. There is no evidence of any livestock having been kept in the barn; it just appears to be a hayloft and vehicle store.Thank you for the technical specs. I have had a quick look and it seems that a barn renovation for habitation is not exempt.I forgot to mention some further information received from the mayor's office: one cannot apply for a construction permit until you have bought the property. This sounds logical but is completely unhelpful with regard to due diligence. As a prospective buyer, I need to know if specific renovations are going to be allowable under the current rules. If this means engaging a builder or architect to do some sketches and draw up a rough spec then so be it. Pending some official information, the positive noises from the agent have been dismissed as sales patter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Can you not garner some information from the Civil servants?Yes best to ignore the agents, Years back at a property expo a fight broke out between an estate agent and a builder/roofer who was very upset to say the least that the agent was passing off major works which may have not been allowed as minor issues and her husband a builder was agreeing to everything she said to "encourage" sales. Caveat emptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Thanks. I will indeed see what I can find out from the appropriate officers and report back. Cherry picking snippets from the web is time-consuming and probably quite risky.My faith in the agent quickly evaporated when he said, "I didn't tell you this but I think they will settle for X or maybe even Y."I think it is always worth remembering that, as with a regulated solicitor or independent financial advisor, you need to be certain that you can get redress from their professional body when things go bad. An optimist might have used 'if' in that last sentence; alas, my caveats have long since been emptored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hank I have sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hank, you have to remember that in France the seller sets the price not the agent although the agent will offer advice if asked. The agent may sit down with the seller and tell them they have an offer, not the full asking price but a realistic price given the state of the property and the prices similar properties have achieved in the area. Also don't forget that outside the big cities prices are still going down. There are two prices, the one it is put on the market and the price people will pay which can vary by around 20% at the moment, well where I live it can. It is a different way of buying and selling so don't even try to compare it to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 When I mentioned the animals, I did not necessarily mean that they would be kept on your property, it is the distance from their barns to your living quarters that counts.Also, have the current owners not got a CU. http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1633.xhtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cendrillon Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hank I corrected my last PM to you.Predictive text has a lot to answer for!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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