WARNING- DODGY IMMOBILIER. If you have lost your deposit or are in danger of this...

[painterman]

Warning!!!

We have been trying to buy a house in France for a year now, we paid our deposit and signed the compromis de vente last August 2005. We were told by the immobilier that the purchase would be complete by December 2005. At this moment we are now nearly there at completion, BUT we nearly lost the house a few months ago because the immobilier tried to make the vendor put the house back on the market and hopefully the purchase will not fail at the last moment because of some unforseen (to us) reason because our intention has always been to complete on the property even though we have had some very sad and  very worrying days about it.

We have put a complaint in to FNAIM. We hope that they will investigate thoroughly.

We are also going to contact the Chambre de Metiers if this is the correct place with details of their Siret number.

If you have lost your deposit because you have not been able to get either honest replies, or you have had no reply at all, AND you had/have already signed a contract and paid your deposit, then please will you contact me. This is probably going to be a lot of unpaid work for me but I am livid.

The reason for this is that I spoke to the immobilier's manager a few days ago on the telephone. We had a short conversation and I tried to negotiate a reduction in the fee because of all the dishonesty and incompetance that we have had to deal with from the immobilier. The extra costs we have incurred run into thousands because of the delays. The immo' manager was not prepared to negotiate a fee reduction.

The purchase price is 95,000.00 euros and the immobilier fees on top of this are 10,000.00 euros- pretty high for the immobilier doing so little and also lying about what he had done for us. (If the purchase had completed when it was supposed to we would not have 'quibbled' about the immo' fees but would have paid them promptly.) As we have not yet completed on the purchase, we have not yet had to pay the fees in the contract, which by the way, on the contract a false date had been put by the immo' because we were not even in the country of France at the time to have agreed this amount, but unfortunately for us we missed noticing this date when we signed the contract as we were busy trying to understand the words. 

This French estate agent has connections to a well known usually more upper price bracket of property estate agents in the UK who as far as I know actually have a good reputation and they probably will not be too happy with the press information that may be about to be produced soon about the French immo'.

The immobilier manager did not replace his telephone receiver properly after he had finished with me and it was quite a short ' I don't care about you type' of conversation , (no apology for the inconvenience of being made to wait a whole year, and it is only with the help our the notaire that we have managed this far) -and I heard the immobilier manager say in English to a female colleaugue "These English people do not have the confidence or the language to be able to do anything about it". Now there is no room here for sarcasm. This is costing us ten thousand euros for this disgraceful 'service' by the immobilier for the house purchase process. I know that I am not allowed to name and shame on this forum, and therefore I cannot put the immobilier name and office(s) here, but if you have lost your deposit through no fault of your own personal circumstances and if the problem has been entirely with the immobilier, then I would like to hear from you please by 'PM - private message' and maybe we could collectively take our problems forward to FNAIM (as the immo' we are using is registered with FNAIM and the yellow triangle that is supposed to stand for good ethics, honesty and professionalism) and the Chambre de Metiers. We are also looking to involve the Press in this when we have obtained contact details of them.

I have retained copies of my letters and emails, with proof of posting by registered post and noted dates, and content etc of telephone conversations I have had to make with this purchase. So if you have proof also then it may be worthwhile to contact me because maybe together we can stop these people doing this sort of thing to others.

The estate agent tried to blame us for all the delays, when in fact it has been his lies, his dishonesty that have stopped us making progress with the purchase for many months because for quite a while we had trusted him, until he tried to pressurise us into signing and paying for the house without the necessary planning permission. This is so unprofessional. 

We have met some very lovely French people whilst staying in France but this immo' and his manager are something else if they knowingly take advantage of people who have not yet mastered the French language.

I would not extend my complaint to say that this sort of thing is a regular occurrence with the immobilier, but imagination can lead you to think of the money making possibilities without comeback?... That if an immobilier can get away with this once, as in our case, then it may be possible that an unethical work conduct could develop in the future, and I would like to make sure that this does not happen.

Anyone past and present willing to help and support each other? Please could we rally together?

 

  

[BJSLIV]

I'm sorry to hear that you have had a slow and complicated purchase. Things, not only house purchases, often take a long time to sort out in France.

However just because things are slow, with misunderstandings on both sides, it doesn't always mean that anyone has been telling lies.

I would be very careful about making such accusations, even in private messages. If as you admit you do not have a 100% grasp of either the French language  or of French ways things can become more convoluted and take longer sto sort out than then they need to.

[P]

Painterman

You certainly seem upset.

However, I find it somewhat difficult to form an opinion about where the fault lies without knowing the whole story.

Paul

 

[Patf]

I thought the deposit should be paid to the notaire, not the immobilier. The notaire puts it into a special account until the final Acte. But I hope you get sorted out. These double immo systems are bound to cost more in their fees. Pat.

[Nick Trollope]

I don't quite understand what an Immo can do to hold up the process for 9 months, after the compromis has been signed. After this time, it is down to the Notaire, no?

Good luck anyway!

BTW, when the Notaire (as he will at the final signing) asks if he can pay the fees to the Immo, say "no". Then negotiate with the Immo - at this point the deck is stacked in your favour.

 

[Sunday Driver]

If I recall from an earlier thread by Painterman, he bought the house subject to obtaining an additional planning permission.  It was agreed that the immobilier would submit this on his behalf, but they failed to do so.  Because of the inherent timescales involved, the omission only came to light several months later and after the immobilier had denied that there was a problem with the application .  The matter was subsequently referred to their notaire who has since taken over the planning submission.  The vendors were advised of the reasons for the delay and were content to await developments.

Painterman is understandably annoyed that the matter has stretched out this long, but I suspect that it's the immobilier's unhelpful attitude that's pulled his trigger.

P - You've already reported them to their industry body, so perhaps it's time to just move on and look forward to the day when the house is yours........

 

[Deimos]

Sounds like the Immobiliers are "human" and made a mistake. I've made mistakes myself on occasions. Part of life. For me life is too short to be looking back and I prefer to look forwards. Sounds like its in hand now and maybe look forward rather than dwell on the past.

What I'd try to do anyway.

Ian

[painterman]

Thank you to those that have replied. I do appreciate your comments. The house is still not yet ours and we have been plugging away at it for months and months. What we are discovering is that some of the dates on the paper work are somewhat incorrect. Thankfully we have the proof of this, and I'm afraid the problem is down to the immobilier holding back all sorts of relevant paperwork that should have been dealt with at notaire level- but if the notaire that he appointed is not given the paperwork by the immo' then the notaire can't deal with it. Only because we started dealing in detail direct with the notaires has have all the problems come to light one after another. We sorted out more in one week of taking direct action than the immo' had in nine months or thereabouts ( I shan't pull the diary out to be so specific on here but everything is diarised).

I know that you have to be very careful when making accusations about people lying- but not just for us but for other people, the risks of dealing with an immo' who is not being honest costs thousands of pounds. I'm not trying to be 'noble' about this, but we thought that we had done sufficient research before we embarked on the house hunt directly in France. We did ask the right questions, but the immo' we have since found out from various people, (including advice from the notaires to put right what the immo' has told us that was wrong), has been obstructive by not replying to us, verbally and in writing (more fool him an unscrupulous person may say), & ignoring letters we sent by registered post  asking for copies of documents that were supposedly in his possession but actually we have found that at those points they  were merely still thin air (none existant).

  If my 'thread' can help anyone else stuck in our position, or stops someone from ending up in this position, then I'll try to help. Like others, I know that I can only do what I believe is right, but by going through to the notaires and now  FNAIM directly, I hope that, and I'm sure that, the notaires and FNAIM will be honest and professional in any advice or help they can give. The notaires certainly have. We wish we had contacted  FNAIM  sooner. We have been too patient.

It is not yet a time to say 'Oh yes we'll make a compromise about the fees' because at this moment in time the immo' is totally unwilling to compromise. He wants the whole lot.

As I've written before, if the purchase would have gone through at the proper time, give or take a few weeks, then paying the full fees would be no problem. Now it is a point of principle for the lack of work done by the immo' and the dishonesty that we have had to take.

The Chambre de Metiers is next on my list of contacts, before the Press if I have to, but we may contact an avocat first.

 No- one should have to do what we have had to do to safeguard their deposit monies paid when the immo' shows the yellow triangle as being a member of FNAIM, and we have confirmed that he is.

Once again thanks for all your replies, and if anyoneis in the same position as us, please do 'pm' me and I will try to help as best as I can.

Painterman & The Mrs.

 

[Deimos]

I think you should start preparing yourselves for the next shock. If you thought Immos were bad, just wait until you try and get a French artisan to do something. If you find "broken promises" difficult to take then definitely employ a Project Manager or somebody else to deal with whatever your planning permission is for as getting artisans to do what they say when they say is more than a challenge.

Ian

[Beryl]

I wish you the best of luck Painterman.

I think it is admirable that you are not going to put up with the shoddy service you have received. Like you said it might save another person going through the same problems as you, at least with this immobilier.

Things may well be different in France, but IMHO dodgy businesses anywhere should not be tolerated.

[painterman]

Thanks Deimos, but there are a couple (to keep it short) of insidious discrepancies amongst the paperwork that we have that could point to the fact that perhaps this immo' has already done this sort of thing to someone else with this property. I have asked FNAIM to check out this particular point, but I won't write that bit on this forum because although proof of the paperwork is winging its way to France for them to see, I would hate to give the immo' the chance now to make that bit of info' suddenly disappear before FNAIM have had chance to check it completely.

It would be nice to think of forgetting it all when , if (still) the house becomes ours, but we have neighbours to think of too who will wonder why our vendor is being put through a certain amount of financial hardship now, because pressurising us, by the immo' to sign before we had the DDE planning permission has not worked and we've insisted upon waiting until we have proper permission- after all if planning permission was not forthcoming we would not be buying the house. 

So it is not a case of simply 'broken promises'. They can be resolved or worked through by good communication and a bit of care to one's fellow mankind. The point about artisans is interesting though. We shall see in time, but from a hard grafting family myself, artisan style work should not be too difficult to deal with even though I still have lots to learn in all sorts of areas, and I'm sure there are plenty of artisan people that do take a pride in a job properly done.

Thanks though for your thoughts.

[painterman]

Thank you Beryl, I agree.

[:)]

[Will]

As someone with close connections to a straight agent in France I applaud your efforts in bringing a dodgy one to book.

First, don't necessarily believe what anybody tells you - it's common practice, even in France, to try and blame somebody else for one's own errors or omissions, and it sounds as if you may have uncovered a whole web of incompetence, not just from the agent. Second, the Chambre de Metiers won't be interested, the Chambre de Commerce is a better bet. Third, don't expect too much from FNAIM. They are a club for estate agents, and just as likely to line up behind their member as to take your side.

Finally, too late for you, but worth repeating for others, never pay money to an agent - always pay deposits etc to the notaire. And treat agents in Britain with French houses for sale with care. Many are perfectly OK, but some are little more than money-pits. You are always better off  going direct to the agent in France if you can.

[Harley]

TOP TIPS TO TRY TO AVOID NASTY SITUATIONS WITH IMOBILLIERS:

I wouldn't:

PAY MY DEPOSIT TO AN AGENT

SIGN A COMPROMIS DE VENT DRAWN UP BY AN AGENT

SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL IT HAD BEEN THOROUGHLY TRANSLATED BY AN INDEPENDANT TRANSLATOR

I would:

DO MY HOMEWORK - LOOK FOR RECOMMENDATIONS

EMPLOY AN INDEPENDANT TRANSLATOR (WHO KNOWS THE INDUSTRY) AND NOT ONE RECOMMENDED BY THE AGENT.  EVEN IF THE AGENT SPEAKS ENGLISH!

PAY DEPOSIT DIRECTLY TO MY NOMINATED NOTAIRE. Feel free to correct me on this but I don't think they have to be in the same town as the agent.  In fact I would prefer it if they were not.

REMEMBER THAT THE AGENT IS IN BUSINESS - AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THEY WANT THEIR MONEY - THEY ARE NOT MY BEST FRIEND - KEEP IT STRICTLY BUSINESS AND FORMAL - NO FIRST NAME NONSENSE FOR ME.

REMEMBER THAT IF THE SALE CAN ONLY BE COMPLETED "SUBJECT TO" THAT THESE CLAUSES ARE IN THE CDV BEFORE I SIGN.  I.E. MORTGAGE, CLEARANCE OF ALL RUBBISH FROM HOUSE, REPAIRS TO HOUSE, PLANNING CONSENT INCLUDING  THE DATES BY WHICH TIME THESE THINGS SHOULD BE DONE.

Feel free to add any suggestions.  Anything to stop another individual going through the potential misery we did[:(]

[Lori]

Painterman & The Mrs.  I too feel badly for you.  As I'm sure you know, you are not the first to be in this type of situation.  I think the entire house buying process in France stinks !  It has way too many holes in the system where various different parties can s c r e w the other.  We have our own story to tell, but won't bore you with it here.

Do be careful with Notaires too.  They are not all well trained and scrupulous.  Question everything and get everything in writing.  Even sending your own written documents to review your understanding of a certain meeting, transaction, etc.  Never be shy about calling to follow-up on anything.

And as for attorneys in France.  Be extremely careful.  Like many places, they run the gammut.  We have had two terrible experiences with attorneys here.  We too would have pursued them for compensation (or reimbursement of payments for services NOT rendered), but we would have had to use the legal system to do that and as has been said here, on this thread, we had had enough of the entire process.  I must say that at a certain point in the attorney's office, I wanted to stand up and scream or beat someone up (preferably the attorney) and this is not in my nature.  Obviously, I just screamed after I left the office.

As to Artisans, well you will just have to use your own good judgement.  Never pay in advance, try to get commitments in writing (good luck on this one) and if the person doesn't seem all that interested or fully knowledgable about your job, don't hire them (suppose that is just good common sense).  The first devis I got for fencing a 3000 m2 garden was 40,000 Euros !!!!!  I"m not kidding.  I still have it to show folks for a laugh.  I literally laughed in his face when he handed me the devis.  We've had similar devis's for other work too.

Best of luck to you.  I hope it all works out in the end.

[Graye]

I've been reading this thread with interest as we may be looking to buy in France once we have rented for four months there.  My experience is only of house buying in the UK and also Spain both of which are obviously different although Spain sounds more similar with the compraventa and notario etc.  But I can't understand why the agent is being described as dishonest rather than just plain inefficient?  What exactly is in it for him?  Surely if he took a deposit it would be on behalf of the vendor and they would be able to get it from him quickly enough? And the same if the vendor withdraws, would it not be simple to have the agent refund the amount paid to him as a deposit on an aborted sale?  I can't see that legally he would have a leg to stand on if he retained it in either direction.  It sounds as though he is lying to cover up his own inadequacies rather than with a view to con anyone out of anything. 

Another point, does the purchaser pay the agent in France rather than the vendor?  Here in Spain it is more normal to agree with the agent the amount you want "in your hand" as it were.  What he sells the house for is between himself and the purchaser. Does the vendor not have to pay fees to the agent or does he pay more?

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Lori"]

I think the entire house buying process in France stinks ! 

[/quote]

I suspect the half million expats who bought their french houses without any problem and without the fear of gazumping, broken chains, etc which are commonplace in the UK housing market will probably disagree with you.... [8-)]

People have a right to express their misgivings, but let's keep things in perspective.

 

 

[Harley]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"][quote user="Lori"]

I think the entire house buying process in France stinks ! 

[/quote]

I suspect the half million expats who bought their french houses without any problem and without the fear of gazumping, broken chains, etc which are commonplace in the UK housing market will probably disagree with you.... [8-)]

People have a right to express their misgivings, but let's keep things in perspective.

 

 

[/quote]

Ok so how many people who read this Forum have found themselves to be oneof the above.  Sadly, we would not be able to add ourselves into this group when either purchasing or selling our first home in France.  It would be nice to hear from those that had the above experience.  It would give us all hope[;-)]

[Deimos]

When I purchased my place through a mainstream UK Immo (linked to a French Immo) they made a bit of a mess-up and I ended-up getting a bit of a discount on the fees. But before starting I expected such issues - not the details of the problem that actually happened but being realistic (and maybe cynical) we are talking about Estate Agents. Living in the real world one has to appreciate that they are not (normally) your best friend but are running a business and are after your money. Being your "best friend" is often "good business". Where there were things to be organised I made sure I kept well up-to-date with what was happening and when and progress - thus when things did not happen one can do something about it.

I regard it as similar to the UK process - things are never 100% smooth and if you leave it to professionals you are much more likely to have things drift and go wrong. After all, these professionals are dealing with a lot of people and are human.

People talk about the system in country X being better/worse/etc. but I'm still unsure. I don't think the French system is good or bad - I treat is as "it is".

I purchased my place OK - it can and does work (not 100% but few things in life are and to expect it will normally lead to disappointment). I would class myself in the group who think things can go smoothly (but it need work).

Ian

[Quillan]

[quote user="Harley"]

TOP TIPS TO TRY TO AVOID NASTY SITUATIONS WITH IMOBILLIERS:

I wouldn't:

PAY MY DEPOSIT TO AN AGENT

SIGN A COMPROMIS DE VENT DRAWN UP BY AN AGENT

SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL IT HAD BEEN THOROUGHLY TRANSLATED BY AN INDEPENDANT TRANSLATOR

[/quote]

Actually I did all of the above without problem.

If you pay an agent you need to ensure that they are bonded and registered to take deposits.

Agents don't draw up the Compromis de vent a notair does but it is the agent that might present it to the client which happened in our case.

We recieved a full and accurate translation of the documents at the time of signing.

We set a date to move in, we inspected the house one hour signing (recomended) moved in and had wonderful support from our agent. Even now (4 years down the road) we can still get our agent to deal with problems for us should we have any.

To others reading this thread I would say it's the same old story. You never hear about the good ones when it all goes like clockwork which is the norm, it's only the bad ones people write about.

 

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Harley"]

Ok so how many people who read this Forum have found themselves to be one of the above.  Sadly, we would not be able to add ourselves into this group when either purchasing or selling our first home in France.  It would be nice to hear from those that had the above experience.  It would give us all hope

[/quote]

OK, I'll start things off....[;-)]

First step was to understand that France is a foreign country with different rules and regulations.  That meant doing full research on the house buying process including downloading and studying samples of all the official documents we were likely to encounter (compromise, Acte, tax loceaux) as well as studying the regulations on income tax, healthcare, vehicle registration, etc.

After spending months trawling through the internet and UK magazines (plug for Living France), we identified a suitable house in the area which we wished to live.  We didn't want to pay big fees to a UK agency to do something we could easily do ourselves, so we went directly through a French immobilier.

We contacted the immobilier and expressed our interest and they e-mailed full details of the property with photographs, dimensions, etc.  Our UK house having been sold and possessions in storage, we arrived in France in our camping car.  On phoning the immobilier, they told us they'd sold the house a week ago.  Not very happy that they didn't think to let us know, but given that they probably regarded us as just a casual foreign enquirer, I can't really criticise them.

So, back to square one and marooned on a French campsite with limited internet access.  Next couple of weeks were filled by calling on all the immobiliers in the area and visting a few potential properties.  Nothing suitable - until we came across our present place.

The immo got us to sign a bon de visite and arranged an immediate viewing and we met the owners and saw the house.  We asked lots of questions and received straightforward responses.  Back at the immo's office, we expressed our interest in buying the property.  The immo asked us how much we wanted to pay for the house, and we gave an all inclusive figure.  She did a quick calculation including reducing her commision to reach what she thought would be an acceptable figure and said "OK, let's give them a ring".  Result, the owner accepted our offer.

We all met up at the immo's the next evening to sign the compromis.  Although we both speak reasonable French, she printed an extra copy in English as well.  Surprise - it turned out to be identical in format to the sample we'd previously downloaded and simple to understand.  She read through each paragraph to make sure we understood and inserted some additional items that we asked for.  She rang the seller's notaire and suggested a completion date one month on and the notaire agreed that it was feasible.  After signing, she asked about the deposit.  I said we'd need a few days to organise a funds transfer, so she said forget about it, it's not necessary.

We waited a fortnight to receive our copy (I was getting a bit concerned about this delay) but when it arrived at the campsite, I saw the delay was due to her waiting for the results of the asbestos/termite reports which were included with the paperwork. Now that I'd received everything, my seven days cooling off period began.  Part of my concern was the potential that we might be gazumped, until I remembered that the sellers were committed to the deal from the instant they signed the compromis.  Panic over, relaxed now, everything loaded in my favour.

We subsequently called on the sellers for a chat and coffee and to take photos of the house to send back to the family.  We also met the neighbours (who were also his relatives) who were most charming.  Turned out also that his niece was the Maire.

A few days before the final signing, I called into the notaire's to obtain their bank RIB for the funds transfer and a copy of the Acte to study before the meeting. Again, it was identical in format to the example we already had and even simpler to understand.

At the meeting, the notaire asked if we understood french and when we said yes, she became very relaxed and everything was conducted in a friendly manner.  She read through each paragraph of the document and we asked questions as necessary.  We all signed and afterwards, she handed a cheque to the immo for her fee and a bigger cheque to Mrs Seller who immediately popped it in her handbag, to everyone's amusement.  She handed over the keys, and that was it.  We sorted all the utilties ourselves without any difficulty.

Five months later, the notaire send us a copy of the tax fonciere bill and we sent her a cheque for our agreed share.  A few weeks later, she sent us a cheque for the unused balance of the notaire fee.

Because we knew in advance exactly what was required in respect of house buying, health, cars etc, moving to France has been an absolute doddle in every respect.  No surprises, no nasties...... 

So, here's one satisfied buyer - only 499,999 to go....[;-)]

[KathyC]

You can add me to the list. We saw some houses in the window of a local immobilier, wandered in to express an interest, she shut the office and drove us round to view the properties. We rang up the next day to make an offer and, after a little negotiation, an offer was expected. We went into the office to sign the Compromis, which was bilingual (my French was up to understanding that there were no discrepancies) and arranged to transfer our deposit into the notaire's account. As SD said, 2 weeks later we received our Compromis, complete with lead, asbestos and termite reports. Things proceded painlessly from then on, with the only delay being on our side whilst waiting for GP's report to back up the mortgage. We came over the day before we were due to sign and were given the keys to enable us to check out the house and start attacking the garden (neighbours were complaining!) The notaire explained everything in English very thoroughly, we signed and were given the keys. A few months later we were sent a cheque for about 700E that we had overpaid.

I've bought and sold about 10 times in the UK and this was the most painless and hassle free experience I have ever had. There were no worries (apart from the GP's report) and no question about anything going wrong. I wish that the UK system would learn a few things from the French.

[Beryl]

My purchases have been painless too BUT that's not the point is it?

It's the 1 in whatever time that it goes horribly wrong and I can only imagine how annoying , stressful it must be.

I can see what Sunday Driver says about keeping things in perspective. But this thread is not about focussing on the good service received but about the bad.

 

[Sunday Driver]

Agreed - and there are lessons to be learnt from these experiences.  

However, it's also important to ensure that other members considering a move to France are not discouraged by people condemning the whole system because of a unfortunate personal experience.

[Quillan]

[quote user="beryl"]

My purchases have been painless too BUT that's not the point is it?

It's the 1 in whatever time that it goes horribly wrong and I can only imagine how annoying , stressful it must be.

I can see what Sunday Driver says about keeping things in perspective. But this thread is not about focussing on the good service received but about the bad.

[/quote]

My reason for answering was because there was a comment that did not appear to be correct plus as I said we only ever hear about ones that go wrong and not the hundreds of thousands that go right.. Personally I really feel for the original poster and reading some of the points he has raised I can understand where he is coming from. I have also read some of the other points made by others here and think that they are also very good. If I were to step back and view it from the point of a person looking at buying in France for the first time I would be rathe frightened by what I had read so I wouldn't like them to thinkthat all the agents in France were dodgy. It's all about perspective I guess.