Legal obligations of seller...

[Milou]

Hello there all,

 We are looking at buying a property.

We are using a French legal advisor practising in the U.K who is guiding us through the procedure. 

We have been told that the proprietor of the newly renovated property we wish to buy must furnish us with a certificate of conformity for the works done by himself and professional friends. No artisans were used for electrics, plumbing, roofing, wall rebuilding and structural carpentry.

We have also been advised that the proprietor must furnish us with a 'Dommage ouvrage certificate assurance' which is a deccenial assurance and a legal requirement for any work.

The owner of this property has done all works himself and is denying any knowledge of the above requirements and indeed of any conformity to French building regs.

He tells us all work has been done to French Norms and he is only under obligation to deliver copies of permis de construire, declaration des achievment des travaux and a certificate for the fosse.

As the place had electricity before he says no certificate is required for the new installation.

What about plumbing, masonry and the roofing...?

Should we just leave this property well alone...?

It is a 200year old farm building that has been completely renovated from a shell.

Please advise.

 Thanking you all in advance.

[BJSLIV]

Is the developer French ?

[Will]

What has the nationality got to do with it?

Welcome to French bureaucracy and jobsworth-ism - though you usually find it at fonctionnaire level, not in a so-called adviser retained by you. Has this chap actually seen the property?

It is not wrong to say that rules and procedures exist, there are probably more in France than anywhere else. But so do exceptions to the rules, and other rules that override the original rules. If the rules you mention, which are valid, were applied rigidly and universally hardly anybody would be able to sell or buy a house. 

You need to establish whether this was a private individual doing his own work to a good standard, or if it is a bodge job by black market tradesmen. If the workmanship is good, then buy the house if you want it. If not, then consider it carefully. Get an architect or surveyor (there are some in France) to look if you want a second opinion.

It sounds as if the 'adviser' is covering himself in the event of you buying the house, finding it has serious faults, and suing him because he gave bad advice. If he persists in that attitude, you will never find a house to buy unless you buy one brand new with full warranties.

[Simon]

I, too, am not sure of the legal requirements, but normally any major building works (including new plumbing, electrics etc.) would be guaranteed for 10 years.  The "dommage ouvrage certificate assurance" is only an insurance underwriting such a liability (of the developer).  This is not a legal requirement but does make any claim easier - as it is the insurance company that coughs up (although I have heard that there can be problems with this as the insurance company might challenge any defect).

You need to ascertain if the works qualify for a 10-year guarantee.  If not then it is entirely your risk.  If it does qualify then the risk falls on the owner and you can sue him/her if things go badly wrong as the "Maitre d'Ouvrage".  But of course this depends on whether the owner has any money and you will have to take the risk of suing and legal fees..........

FYI we have bought a brand new house but without "Dommage Ouvrage" (only time will tell if this is the right thing) but our (French) neighbours bought from the same developer and we watched carefully as the house was built (and ensured the builders, electricians and plumber all has insurance for 10-year guarantees which (I think is a legal requirement) so fingers crossed.

It sounds as though th works will qualify for a 10-year guarantee, Dommage Ouvrage cannot be applied retrospectively (I think) so I would advise you to at least ensure the owner is identified as the "Maitre d'Ouvrage" in any contract.

Finally the Notaire should advise you on these points too.

Simon

 

 

 

  

[Beryl]

I am casting no aspersions.

Can I advise anyone using French legal advisors in the UK to check that they are actually what they say they are and that they have the necessary permits to be trading as such in the UK. 

The Law Society can advise you further.

[Val_2]

I can tell that some of the rubbish places british people buy here would no way conform to ANY sort of  buildings standard,insurance cover or surveyor's inspection and yet they still sell them at over inflated prices. I've seen too many places like this over the years and I'm afraid most get away with selling such properties, one or two have been deathraps waiting to happen as well. If you are truly truly worried about buying such a property you have two choices - a. walk away now and feel secure you could have bought pig in a poke or b. get a professional in to check the important works. It seems that every man and his dog who comes here suddenly turns into a professional builder, electrician or plumber when they have never so much as changed a plug in the UK previously.

[Teamedup]

Simon, no 10 year guarantee on a brand new house? This sounds very very odd to me. Artisans have this insurance to cover their work,  so why hasn't yours?

Re the 'advice' given from l' Angleterre. Well, it brought a wry smile to my face this morning.  One thing is for sure, if this bloke just 'did' his own work and didn't take out any insurance, then he can't get it now.

Did he need and get planning permission? I suppose you could check with the Mairie in the commune.

I take it you are paying for this advice, it just doesn't sound like they are talking about France to me.

[Bugsy]

If this helps, we were told by the Notaire, when we bought our house that all work completed by 'professionals' was 'covered' and all work done by the 'owner' was not.

Pretty simple I know, but thats just me.......................[:D]

[Monika]

I would imagine Will is right, nobody could sell a house if all these papers need to be on the table. We have just finished our renovation/new build with a project manager employing the various artisans. We have no certificates of conformity nor an actual piece of paper with a guarantee on it. All we have is planning permissions, workschedules, detailed invoices and signing off the work document. Unless the house is new I would imagaine the buyer (possibly together with a surveyor or a builder) has to form his own opinion as to the state of the build. Also surely if you would need these papers nobody could renovate their own property any longer and all the DIY stores would have to close.

[united]

It seems a tad strange to me that the seller on one hand the seller can deny knowledge of some French requirements and on the other confirm all the work has been completed to French norms. If he has done all the work himself there cannot be a 10 year guarantee across all trades and I would be suprised if he was registered in any.

You obviously have concerns to raise this thread, as others have said seek a full survey and if its bad walk away, there are other properties. It will be hard, but the property of your dreams now could become the property of your nightmares in the future!

 

[BJSLIV]

I was asking the nationality of the developer, because I assume that any such who was French would be well aware of the legal requirement for a new-build or equivalent to be covered by the Assurance Domage O. It seems that the legal rep in this country is also aware of this requirement.

[Will]

I understand why you are asking - but from what the original post says it is a private individual and his colleagues who have done the work, and it did say they were not artisans or developers, so one would not expect the 10-year guarantee.

That will sound to some as if they are bound to be British, probably working on the black market, and that might well be the case. So the adviser is perfectly correct to urge caution, but totally off the mark in advising the buyers to avoid anything that doesn't come with a full set of guarantees and certificates - I feel sure you would only find that in a new build, not necessarily even in a professionally-done rebuild, as there are bound to be some things (external walls and foundations?) that would not be covered.

But the French do the same, in fact our house was renovated/converted 10 or more years ago by a Frenchman (a Corsican to be exact), working on just that basis, and it is still standing now, in excellent repair, nothing wrong at all with the workmanship.

[Will]

Duplicated post - deleted

[BJSLIV]

I agree that if you do work for yourself or your family  then a Ass DO is not required. However from the way the original poster described the property, it sounds to me , and I suspect his advisor, that it is in the nature of a comercial renoavation project, and hence could fall within the scope of ADO.

 

 

[Patf]

Any gas installations need to have a certificate of conformity. We sold our house to a dutch couple who used their own  legal adviser and he asked for various certificates. Luckily we had the ones they asked for. Pat.

[Chancer]

Unless I have missed the point the original poster said "newly renovated property" not new build so therefore no assurance deccenial is necessary.

Even with a brand new build (done by the individual and/or using non registered labour) it is quite alright to sell without the deccenial - however in this case the seller "technically" remains liable for serious defects for the liabilty period, however proving liability and then getting money back would probably remain "technically possible".

If someone builds their own new house the cost of a deccenial is so prohibitive that most small developers prefer to rent for the first 10 years as well as for other fiscal advantages.

So back to the original post, buying this house is no different to any other second hand house, make the decision based on what you (and perhaps a surveyor if you wish) can see and find, not some peice of paper which may in time turn out to be more trouble than it is worth.

Regarding building regs I have been told by many artisand around here "you may build your house out of cereal packets if you want as long as it is the same size and looks like the picture on the permis de construire" - I know of many properties around here that are very close to this!

[BJSLIV]

I think that this article gives a very good summary of the pros and cons of Assur DO

http://autoconstruction.free.fr/spip.php?article114

The fact is that any professional developer should have DO cover for every new-build project, or one that involves major renovation of an existing property.

An individual selling their own DIT project may be asked to give personal guarantees to cover the work.

[Milou]

Hello there,

So many responses!

I shall clarify some facts...

This is the sellers main residence, he lived previously in another building on the land which is now ripe for renovation.

He is not a property developer but a competant renovator who has had some experience in the building trade and has had some help from pro' friends for the electrics and fosse installation.

No artisans where used or harmed during the renovation which also was not done simply to sell on but to live in.

It is a change of circumstance which requires the sale of this property (marriage to a local girl)

This is as I understand things to be.

[Simon]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

Simon, no 10 year guarantee on a brand new house? This sounds very very odd to me. Artisans have this insurance to cover their work,  so why hasn't yours?

[/quote]

I didn't say I did not have a 10 year guarantee (we do - it is a legal requirement) - merely that the "dommage ouvrage" insurance was not in place so if we need to make a claim it has to be done directly to the developer and the insurance cover for the artisans is in place (as stated).  People get confused between legal liability and insurance (against such a liability).

Of course if the developer doesn't have any assets then we are in trouble BUT the artisans used (by the developer) do have insurance (so we could progress this avenue).  All this was explained by our extremely competent UK and French qualified solicitor based in the UK.  She is excellent and I would have no problem recommending her.

 

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Milou"]Hello there,
So many responses!
I shall clarify some facts...

This is the sellers main residence, he lived previously in another building on the land which is now ripe for renovation.
He is not a property developer but a competant renovator who has had some experience in the building trade and has had some help from pro' friends for the electrics and fosse installation.
No artisans where used or harmed during the renovation which also was not done simply to sell on but to live in.
It is a change of circumstance which requires the sale of this property (marriage to a local girl)

This is as I understand things to be.


[/quote]

I'll put my penn'orth in to clarify/precis the situation;

As your seller is an individual, then there is no requirement for ADO - in fact, such a thing would be too expensive for most "amateurs".

If there was an existing supply, thene there is no requirement for a c-of-c for the electrics. However, if you are worried, then you can reasonably ask the seller for a CONSUEL certificate, or get a survey done by an electrician. Likewise for any fixed gaz installation.

There are no building regs in France - just "Normes", with which the seller has claims to have complied. It is in your interest, but not mandatory to check that he has - either yourself, or by using a surveyor.

Don't waste your money on "overseas" advisors - regardless of their nationality.

 

Any faults that the seller knows about (or it could be proven that he should know about) but does not disclose to you are covered by the "vice cache" regulations - a Notaire will explain this to you.

 

[Chancer]

Well put Nick

[Deimos]

One thing I have always found is the "difficulty" with conforming to the "norms". Everybody will continually telly you how this, that or the other must be however. For example, I'm a bit paranoid about flues and fumes and knew my boiler flue did not conform to the norms (exit from the roof below the ridge, etc. so the plumber (a fully registered artisan) is currently in the middle of installing a new one so it does conform. However, so far one other artisan has pointed out that what the plumber is doing does not conform to "the norms".

In a general context (i.e. not the specific property mentioned at the start of the thread) with an older property my own opinion is that a lot of the work will have been carried out over some time and, whilst it might have complied with the norms when the work was done, the norms do "move on" and it is just not realistic to continually update one's property with every change. Some norms are probably pretty important (e.g. chimney/flue standards) whilst others might be less critical to "life and limb". When buying an older property I think one has to get out of the state of mind that seeks guarantees and "come back" on everything. When I purchased my current house I had a structural survey done, not for the report (which I never actually got) but rather to have somebody knowledgeable to pass an opinion on the state. After his inspection I spent about an hour on the phone with him discussing it - which was what I really wanted. He was going to send a report but never actually did. I'm sure his report would be like every other structural survey report I've seen - a load of "could not check this", "recommend further ..." basically ensuring the surveyor has no real liability for anything.

I often think that older houses have "stood the test of time" (as they are still standing) whereas newer properties have been built for a profit and thus have used as little and cheap materials as possible to maximise profit.

Ian

[Milou]

Hello,

 Thanks for all the information, you've been a big help.

                Milou