Fitting French doors!

[cardhouse]

I would like to ask advice about the best way to install some French Doors. My small house in Basse Normandie has walls about 2ft thick, and are virtually dry stone with a small amount of lime 'pointing' on the exterior face. Also, centrally to where I wish to put the doors is a large oak beam. Although, I am obviously aware to support the beam on an acro jack, I would be grateful of some advice on how about supporting the interior-exterior wall,  fitting the lintel, and removing the stones. Thus avoiding irrepairable damage!!

Thankyou

[retread]

Cutting holes in rubble walls is a highly risky business.Basically you have a pile of stones supporting the upper floor/roof, if you start to remove the stones you are unable to tell which ones are load bearing and which ones are not it is therefore essential to be fully confident in your abilities as a mason before attempting this kind of work. at the very least you must support the wall above your intended lintel position with a number of through members using double props/ accros at as closer centre as possible. allow a generous overlap for the lintel and dont be suprised if the wall below collapses as you try to cut out the opening.Its not the same game as cutting a hole in a bonded wall imagine putting a hole in a wall of sand.

[cardhouse]

Hi,

 

Thankyou very much for your advice, I am hoping to persevere as I have permission from a declaration de travaux, however may consider a large window.

Cardhouse

[zeb]

I'll go a step further than retread and say - you must get a professional in!!

We did one opening for an internal door in a metre thick stone wall 3 years ago and it was so scary. We carefully made holes right through above where the lintel was going to stick the suppport joists through then propped them with accros back and front - one at a time, three holes, 6 accros. Then took stones out where lintel was going - err 3 reinforced concrete lintels were needed for a metre wide stone wall. Fitted lintel and cemented in both sides. When set and strong we removed all the stones under the lintel for the doorway. At this stage I was wearing motorbike crash helmet, just in case....... The accros were left in until the door with frame was fitted. Then sides were shuttered/made good and all plasterboarded (as our stonework in that room was crap).

All very, very scary as there seemed to be lots of creeking and groaning but OH reckoned I was imagining that. Even he was a bit unnerved by it though so......

.......Got a guy in to do all the other openings - he did them all in less than 2 weeks - 3 veluxes, two normal sized bedroom windows, a port-fenetre, and a service door into the barn and charged 1000 euros!! Think it probably costs more now. Anyway, it was fascinating watching an expert - he took so much care. Mind you, we had absolutely tonnes of rubble to get rid of which seemed out of all proportion to the size of the openings.

Please get an artisan in, or experienced help - folks have been killed doing this sort of thing.

[Bassman]

[quote user="zeb"]I'll go a step further than retread and say - you must get a professional in!! We did one opening for an internal door in a metre thick stone wall 3 years ago and it was so scary. We carefully made holes right through above where the lintel was going to stick the suppport joists through then propped them with accros back and front - one at a time, three holes, 6 accros. Then took stones out where lintel was going - err 3 reinforced concrete lintels were needed for a metre wide stone wall. Fitted lintel and cemented in both sides. When set and strong we removed all the stones under the lintel for the doorway. At this stage I was wearing motorbike crash helmet, just in case....... The accros were left in until the door with frame was fitted. Then sides were shuttered/made good and all plasterboarded (as our stonework in that room was crap). All very, very scary as there seemed to be lots of creeking and groaning but OH reckoned I was imagining that. Even he was a bit unnerved by it though so...... .......Got a guy in to do all the other openings - he did them all in less than 2 weeks - 3 veluxes, two normal sized bedroom windows, a port-fenetre, and a service door into the barn and charged 1000 euros!! Think it probably costs more now. Anyway, it was fascinating watching an expert - he took so much care. Mind you, we had absolutely tonnes of rubble to get rid of which seemed out of all proportion to the size of the openings. Please get an artisan in, or experienced help - folks have been killed doing this sort of thing.[/quote]

 

 

What retread and  zeb said [;-)] this bears no relation to knocking a hole in a brick wall, my father was a master builder and I grew up around building sites, I do pretty much all my own work but I wouldn't attempt this in any way shape or form [:-))]  Good luck if you decide to go ahead mate [;-)]please be very, very careful !

[Dave&Olive]

hi

        ok well i put mine in , i did use "strong boy " tops for the acrows all 6 of them but they do make it tight to work in being so close to the wall. if you put neddles through a random stone wall well they come out random i.e you are ok one side and then you hit a big stone the other so strong boys are the way to go , i did not use preformed lintles i just shutterd the top and filled in with concrete when it set thrashed in some slate and pointed up,

              my mate tried it and his wall fell down ooops

               dave

[powerdesal]

I 'slotted' half the thickness of a 17 inch wall and fitted 2 x rc

concrete lintels one above the other. Then did the other side ditto.

LARGE overlaps for width, it was only a single story so not a lot of

weight above. If you aren't totally happy doing it yourself then you

MUST get a professional. A random stone wall falling apart above you

can seriously spoil your day!!!!!!!!!

Regards

[Le 47]

Hi Dave

What are strong boys please?

No pun intended.

[retread]

[quote user="cardhouse"]

hoping to persevere as I have permission from a declaration de travaux, however may consider a large window.

 

[/quote]The same rules apply to openings no matter how deep. this operation, if mishandled ,will seriously affect your wallet and your health.

[Dave&Olive]

hi

         strong boys are.... ok a nice french word sabot ( shoes ) that fit on top of your accrows .you can then lay them along side the wall cut a slot in the wall slide in the end of the shoe and jack it up.. hope this makes sence ????

   donnot be affraid to have a go if like us you have say a long house and you are going to put in french doors there is not much stone left above to support . so i it falls down it will only fall down to the wall plate , if you have no wall plate fit some support under the roofing joists.

          dave

will take a pic of what happened to my mates and will post asap here

http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j311/daveolive/?sc=1&multi=1&addtype=local&media=image

[cardhouse]

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply Dave. The wall which I am hoping to put the French doors into is a small one up, one down former barn. The lintel would be just lower than roof/gutter height. I'm not quite sure what you mean by a 'wall plate'. I have 2 galvanised steel lintels just over 2m lg which I hope to use to support etc. and once cemented into position I will probably face them off with a wood front cover.

My initial thoughts are to go right through the wall twice from inside to out, and put a piece of rsj through.Then support them both on acros, before removing the stone and inserting the 2 galvy lintels side by side, into the wall.

Anyway, I will wait with interest to have a look at your photos.

Carl

[powerdesal]

Carl,

A 'wallplate' is the flat bit, usually wood, which is on top of the

wall and on which the roof beams / trusses rests. Maybe not the best

description but it should suffice.

May I suggest that you do not 'needle' the wall as you will have a 0 to

1m gap between the needles which is relying only on the iffy mortar

joints between the stones for integrity. If you cut a slot of half the

wall thickness from one side and then cement in your half thickness

lintel, leave it 24 hrs to go off then repeat the exercise from the

other side I believe you will be adopting the best approach.. Your side

overlaps should be substantial. You can then cut vertically downwards

to progressively remove the opening stonework from each side.

This is my opinion only and as such carries no guarantee whatever, if in ANY doubt, pay a pro to do it.

Regards

[Cassis]

Hi Carl

Make sure you have someone standing by with a video camera ...

Sorry, that's a bit cheeky, I'm sure it'll be fine - but all this talk of walls falling down gives me the willies!  I'm in the process of replacing the 'pointing' in our place and the walls are a similar construction to yours.  The stones move about a bit once the old stuff is raked out, I dread to think what would happen if I put a hole in the wall at ground level.  When we installed 'lucarnes' upstairs I chickened out and used a mason. 

Phil

[cardhouse]

Thankyou once again for your advice, their is so much to consider!! Anyway, initial thoughts are that it sounds feasable, however I will bear in mind the use of a pro when I have had a better look at the situation. I had concluded that the longer the overlap, the better.

Regards

Carl 

 

[cardhouse]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your response! your description of your walls does sound very similar, its amazing these buildings have stayed up so long isnt it?

Anyway, at the moment i'm considering all options!

Carl