Which heating?

[BQF]

I desperately need central heating installed before next Winter - my

place in Normandy has a wood burner and electric heating, but this

combination is totally unsuitable.  The very large room with the

woodburner is hotter than Hades, and the electric heaters just about

manage to stop ice forming!!  I'd like some sort of middle

ground.....

The local builder has suggested oil fired CH, but I want a gas cooker

so was thinking of LPG.  Any idea of the costs involved?  I

have been quoted €10,000 for an oil-fired boiler, 5 rads and an oil

tank.  This seems a bit steep - am I right?

[Deimos]

http://www.prochauffage.com/ (right hand side towards bottom) has some cost comparisons for different energy sources. I have LPG (tank in garden) and the gas is very expensive -> I do not switch the CH on (only use it for hot water and the frost stat runs it sometimes).

What plumber came round last year he commented that LPG is now the same price as electricity per KW (I have not personally checked this).

I’m not an expert but it is a complex subject. Many forms of renewable energy heating systems can have their installation costs reduced dramatically through tax credits (if you fill in a French tax return), which means the running costs can then be very good (e.g. solar, geothermal, aero thermal, etc.).

Sorry I cannot really comment further on quotes and prices (others probably know more). Remember that energy prices are more than likely going to increase over the coming years.

Ian

[Gluestick]

My own cost comparisons clearly show that gas is the most expensive.

Oil fired is the best simple option.

One to consider is a wood burning CH system, fueled using pellets: may well be the cheapest, as the fuel is renewable and a French natural (non-imported) resource.

The secret to running costs (in any case) would seem to be insulation, regular servicing of the boiler and the latest fuel-efficient system.

I was quoted (by two competitive sources) circa € 11.500,00 for eleven rads (one being a towel rail), using very much a "Top Dollar" boiler and best quality fittings, including an exterior 2.000 litre tank.

My own calculations show that the total material costs are circa € 4.500,00

And this is paying 19.6% T.V.A. whereas the artisans were quoting only 5.00% T.V.A. labour and materials.

Apparently most (if not all) French oil-fired boilers use Lamborghini guts: it's just the controls and cases which are different: and one comment was that with all the clever control electronics, there is more to go wrong!

You may self-install an oil-fired boiler: you just need to ask your oil supplier to set-up the inlet pressure, jet sprays etc and he will charge circa € 75,00 and give you a certificate: critical for insurance purposes.

With push-fit pipe connectors, plastic pipe and etc., it has to be worth investigating self-installation: or even self-installing all the rads and pipework and asking a local plombiere to install and commission the boiler and flue.

If you do go oil-fired, go for a Venteuse flu system: quieter and more efficient.

 

[powerdesal]

Gluestick,

The prochauffage site shows that pellets are very competitive but I havn't managed to locate a reasonably priced pellet burning CH boiler yet. Have you any recommendations ????? There seem to be a number of pellet stoves about but boilers are a different matter. I estimate needing something like 20kw, thats based on a high level of insulation, your comments are totally agreed with in that respect.

Regarding oil fired boilers, do you think a UK sourced unit is a practical proposition, with correct burner for different viscosity of course. I seem to remember seeing prices of 700 + pounds ( E1000 +) as a start point.

Am I correct in thinking a venteuse flu is a 'fan assisted' flue system ?

[Catalpa]

[quote user="BQF"]I desperately need central heating installed before next Winter - my place in Normandy has a wood burner and electric heating, but this combination is totally unsuitable.  The very large room with the woodburner is hotter than Hades, and the electric heaters just about manage to stop ice forming!! 
[/quote]

Few thoughts from someone also in Normandy (Sourdeval / Mortain) who has just had a heating system installed

- Deimos (was it?) is absolutely right - all forms of heating are going to increase in price so the cheaper fuel now may not be in 3 years

- can you channel via ducting any excess heat from your woodburner room to other room/s?

- We had LPG in the UK and frankly could hardly afford to run it. I don't know that it would be any cheaper in France.

- We've gone for oil (in fact, diesel)-fired central heating but be aware that the system in France (and I believe other mainland European countries) is for the diesel tank to be in the house or at least in a building nearby. Free-standing external tanks are not what happens here.

- Look long and hard at your insulation levels and where possible, increase them even if it means putting insulation between your lovely rafters etc. [:)] Generating heat is expensive so keeping it where you want it is a route we've gone. Possibly even OTT on!  If you've got exposed stone walls, it would be worth running a curtain across them in winter with a thermal backing to try and keep the stone from leaching the heat from the room. Beauty can come at a price. [:-))]

- We have seen a pellet central heating boiler in operation. It does seem to be very effective and at the moment comparatively cheap to run. But not cheap to buy / install. Have no idea what the servicing costs are like either. And with a pellet boiler, a large piece of kit in itself, you need an adjacent building - very large shed or stable for eg, to house the pellets. I believe you can switch fuels too so if maize looks like a more cost effective fuel one year you can choose that. I'm a bit hazy on the practicalities behind that last statement though. I think they're an interesting idea and I believe there are tax benefits available.

- a company called Ozenne in Vire, 14, have done all our work - I can really recommend them. They really thought about our installation - which is complex. They were not the cheapest but they would be a good company for you to obtain a quote.

[Gluestick]

Steve:

I have yet to finalise my research on this topic. Lots of URLs here to search, though.[:D]

Personally, I would not buy a UK boiler for France, as they tend to be marginally different.(apart from the metric/imperial terminations - although even France seem to use BSP fittings for circulating pumps and rads: very confusing![8-)]).

In any case, difficult to obtain warranty or other service across the ditch! Apparently (according to a client and chum who is a part-retired heating engineer and very good) the majority of boilers he now fits in the UK are made in France!

My chosen Lamborghini (from Brico Depot - who seem to be the cheapest) is 32.55 Kw and costs          € 1.390,00 + € 225  for the Ventouse optional flue. I believe that the Ventouse system is rather more than a forced fan flu. It seems to take part-burned exhaust and recycles it into the corps de chauffe to improve combustion efficiency. These prices are for heating only: no hot water.

France does not seem (as yet) to have oil-fired combi boilers which are also condensing: which are by far the most efficient and the current de facto energy-efficient standard.

The best boilers seem to be the Veisman range, which are sold all over Europe including the UK. Very expensive though and are intended rather more for high heat output commercial application, rather than domestic use, although they do make smaller output models.

 Search Fields:

Carburant De Biomasse

Granules En bois

Wood burning pellet stoves

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=France++Poele+Granules+En+bois&meta=

http://www.sollet.info/en/links/links01.php

http://www.polyflam.com/

http://www.sollet.info/en/links/links01.php

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:x6XeeKcOt-gJ:www.pellets2006.com/attachments/24/104.pdf+Wood+Pellet+heating+Systems+France&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3

http://zorra.asiagocheese.info/

http://www.paul-gee.com/

http://www.lesflamands.com/villager

http://www.nef.org.uk/logpile/fuelsuppliers/pelletstoves.asp

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Wood+Pellet+heating+Systems+France&meta=

 

[Gluestick]

catalpa:

I believe that you can indeed use ducting on the new pôeles. These can vent sideways (combustion horizontale) or downwards ( a tirage forcé).

I am cautious about warm air heating, though. Since heat natrually rises, the majority of the hot  air (and thus heat) sits at the top of the room: when one wants it lower down.

Both stoves and radiators, of course, provide radiant heat: as well as employing the natural thermo-cycle to create warm air rising and thereby distribute the heat.

Cuve à Fioul:

The regulations here changed some time ago. Depending on the capacity of the tank, above a certain size, it must be external and in fact buried undergound.

A bigger tank can be an absolute advantage: as one can buy a whole Winter seasons's oil, in the Summer when the price tends to be lower. The bigger the volume, the better the price. Additionally, buying forwards is a classic way of hedging against (certain![6]) price hikes, too.

In theory, even where a tank is housed indoors (Dependances), it has to be surrounded by a "Bund": which is a retaining wall, sealed with oil-proof epoxy resin - or similar - capable of retaining the total capacity of the tank, plus of course the exterior size (in capacity) of the tank in case of spillage.

Since my chosen supplier already uses BP Super Fioul as  the default option and since this remains fluid down to -24 degress C, this creates no problem for me with an exterior tank. Which will be green solar degradation resistant and double-skinned: which neatly removes the problem of a bund!

Now I know that presently French Plombieres are gaily installing (Still!) simple white Plastique single-skinned tanks in garages and outhouses right alongside the boiler, technically this is illegal, in many cases.

I guess that we have to await the first fire and insurance repudiation to know the clear truth!

BTW, if anyone wants a copy of the new regulations on tanks and storage of oils and fuel, please PM me. I bought this from a professional technical translator in France, very reasonable price, too.

Call me Mr Paranoid if you like: however, I do like doing things properly for the cost of a few Euros more.[:D] I'm just the mutt who would fall foul of regulations which I see others blithely ignoring![+o(]

 

 

[Deimos]

[powerdesal wrote] “The prochauffage site shows that pellets are very competitive but I havn't managed to locate a reasonably priced pellet burning CH boiler yet.”

I have a specialist architect (specialist in renewable energy) round a years or so ago and he gave me finger in the air costs for a wood burning boiler that were very high (the pay back time made it a complete non-starter).

I believe I have heard somewhere that wood pellet boilers tend to be for smaller installations and larger installations use wood chips.

Ian

[Gluestick]

I find the "High Cost" thing rather strange, Deimos.

OK, a stylish pellet burner can cost, like all wood burners. However as with all manufacturing and selling processes, once the unit volumes rise, prices will fall in direct ratio, once the design and jig costs are amortised.

However, for a full central heating installation, the rest stays the same. Pipework, rads, circulating pump, ballon, regulating valves and controls. After all, the stove/boiler is merely the primary heat source, rather than oil, gas or electricity.

Some useful data here, plus a range of dealers and manufacturers of pellet burning stoves.

http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/main_pages/wood.htm

 

[Payrac-man]

Hi,

With the ever increasing cost of oil why not use a heat pump. My neighbour in Payrac is installing a ground water type I am looking at an Air to air system as this will be easy to install in a bungalow. Running costs are a third of oil at current prices with the added benefit of climatisation. Look at www.iceenergy.co.uk or   http://www.genvex.uk.com. The latter is very efficient and quiet running.

[Deimos]

[Gluestick wrote]: “I find the "High Cost" thing rather strange, Deimos.”

After he commented on a “finger in the air” price I did not look into it further. My house is close on 400 sq m floor area and he reckoned the boiler would be in the 20000€ region (already have LPG central heating, rads, etc.). He was actually visiting to look at something else, but after that I thought that even if he was massively out it’s pay back time would still be far too long so I started looking into other forms on renewable energy.

He also commented that, at that time there was only one other installation in the department (and this was only a year or so ago).

I agree that the more people buy them, the higher production, the lower the cost, etc..

I did feel it was a pity as I actually have loads of barn space attached to the house, boiler is already in a “barn type area (i.e. not all pretty in the kitchen), etc. If I should be looking then please let me know. Nobody knows the power of my existing boiler but it is thought to be close to 90Kw (I think its burner range is 48Kw to 96Kw). Also, right now is a good time for a change as I’m about to order a new flue for the existing boiler at 2000€ (current flue does not comply with regs).

Ian

[Tillergirl]

We have an LPG tank for our heating hot water and gas cooker and much to our surprise when we arrived here last here found halfway through autumn we couldn't afford the heating costs so to all intents and perposes had to turn the heating off. We set the thermostate to its absoulte min of 4 degrees and just had to watch our money burn when the heating kicked in.

This year we are planning to install a woodburning stove and plumb that into the heating system but still have a backup conected to the gas just to give us that option if we need a quick burst of heat.

Best thing you can do is shop around at prices of different systems thankfully wood and coal is cheap in our area so the new plan would certainly suit us better.

[powerdesal]

Gluestick,

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply, I had found Veisman and they look very good but very expensive.

I am not sure that I agree with your comment about the efficiency of

condensing combi boilers, as I understand it the condensing mode

is only at full load, a point at which most CH boilers dont operate for

too much of the time. I have no experiece to back that up though.

I am not in any great hurry to buy a CH boiler at the moment and am

trying to plan ahead for the long term. What is the availabilty

of wood pellets in France , particularly in areas where log burning is already popular ?

I will work through the list of sites, thanks again.

Regards

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Deimos"][powerdesal wrote] “The prochauffage site shows that pellets are very competitive but I havn't managed to locate a reasonably priced pellet burning CH boiler yet.” <snip> I believe I have heard somewhere that wood pellet boilers tend to be for smaller installations and larger installations use wood chips. [/quote]

 

We looked at pellet woodburners (and I think you are right re pellets vs wood chips, btw) and concluded the payback period could not be reached before the stove died. We were told (after persistent questioning) that the life of a stove was likely to be about 10 years assuming it was used regularly. Then there would be servicing costs, replacement burners etc on an annual basis. We were given an approximate cost of 100 - 200 euros pa. Even with the potential tax credit, we couldn't see it justified the outlay. Unfortunately.

The boiler I mentioned earlier that could run on dried choped maize was indeed running on wood chips. It was installed in a farm house and the wood was taken from around the farm and chipped prior to drying / storage.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Gluestick"] I am cautious about warm air heating, though. Since heat natrually rises, the majority of the hot  air (and thus heat) sits at the top of the room: when one wants it lower down. [/quote]

I was asking BDQ (or whatever his intials were [:$]) whether it was an option he could take. We are planning to duct spare hot air from our sitting room into the hall so that it warms the hall, stairs and landing - taking advantage of the hot air rising.

[quote user="Gluestick"]  ...it has to be surrounded by a "Bund": which is a retaining wall, sealed with oil-proof epoxy resin - or similar - capable of retaining the total capacity of the tank, plus of course the exterior size (in capacity) of the tank in case of spillage.[/quote]

Yes, the idea of 1000 litres of diesel lapping around the utility room isn't attractive!

[quote user="Gluestick"]  BTW, if anyone wants a copy of the new regulations on tanks and storage of oils and fuel, please PM me.[/quote]

Are you offering these free of charge? (need a 'hopeful' emoticon here) [:D]

[quote user="Gluestick"]  Call me Mr Paranoid if you like: however, I do like doing things properly for the cost of a few Euros more... [/quote]

Nope, I'd call you Mr "I like to sleep at night..."

[Gluestick]

[quote user="powerdesal"]
I am not in any great hurry to buy a CH boiler at the moment and am trying to plan ahead for the long term. What is the availabilty
of wood pellets in France , particularly in areas where log burning is already popular ?

I will work through the list of sites, thanks again.

Regards

[/quote]

Steve:

In honesty, I have not, as yet had the time to research French pellet burners and their prices!

It is not the easiest research project, I have found.

Can only suggest that we continue to post in this forum section, as we unearth relevant data!

Like you, I'm not in a particular hurry: it does seem as if most people (and plombieres!) simply make a gas/oil judgement and go from there.

Whole host of variables to take into account here, IMHO.[8-)]

 

[Gluestick]

Not gratis, sadly, catalpa.[:(]

What I can do, is to put anyone directly in touch with the technical translator if they wish.

It would not be fair or commercially correct to copy the data and distribute it free: this person earns their living from such ventures. Fortunately one client paid the main costs: therefore further copies of the data are very reasonable: € 25,00

Now, if I can only find a copy of the latest French wiring regs. in English![;-)]

 

[Catalpa]

[:D] That's okay... I have to admit I was wondering if you were going to charge for a copy of your data and thus defray your original costs... nasty suspicious mind that I have. [:$] Maybe I'm spending too much time on CF... [:-))] I shall speak with my OH and see if he really thinks we need the translation and if so I'll PM you for the contact details. Really, since we're 75% installed now, it was for my peace of mind to check that the company we've used has interpreted the regs correctly. With this type of thing, I'm risk-averse.

[davido]

Payrac-man,

did you ever find any more about an air to air heat pump? We're looking at getting a whole house system installed for this winter, and that's a little closer than I thought. Anyone else have one?

 

thanks

david

[Gluestick]

Davido:

This was discussed at some length, on another recent thread. Search "Heating".

I'm a bit pushed today, as off to la belle France tomorrow bright and early (Like up at 3.30AM[:(] - ouch!), or I'd try and find it for you.

The conclusion seems to be that it can be tricky to extract much heat as the external temp drops. Some authorities dispute this and claim effective latent heat extraction at very low temperatures. I would be concerned that since in physics there is nothing for nothing, then the electric energy consumed would be very high once the outside air temp drops below a certain point, which would therefore negate the "Cheap" concept!

Lots on the web on this subject too. Seems to be popular in Ireland.

Check here as a starting point. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=AirSource+Heating&meta

And, if anyone fancies a nice headache and is in to the maths of Thermo Dynamics, this is a very informative article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

 

 

[Wozza]

BQF

We have just ordered our CH, so can give you a comparitive price. It is €13,000 for boiler and 14 radiators, installed. Oil fired system and includes cuve. Excludes installation of hot and cold water pipework - just the CH pipes. Also excludes supply and installation of boiler flue. We are using a reasonably large and well known company in our area, not a one man band. Hope this helps.

Warren