CLAMP DOWN ON COWBOYS (and property owners)

[AnOther]

Pardon me if my Franch history is less than perfect but wasn't it Napoleon who dubbed them "these ungovernable people" ?

[Gastines]

Ref.Plasterers rates. The last time I had a gang of plasterers to finish off some flats in Bournemouthplus render the outside, they were going on to a site in London offering £1000 A DAY to complete a job by a specified day. They used to get all their jobs of an intenet site and travel all over UK.

After Tony Blairs idea that the UK would be the IT centre of the world and schools/colleges stopped teaching any Trades, the result is now being felt in the Building Trade. I think he.TB. forgot that in India/Indonesia and large parts of Eastern Europe ,they could also answer the phone and use a computer for about a tenth of the wage required in UK.

If I ever get to be re-incarnated,which going on my record I doubt, I thought a BT phone engineer would be a good job as they seem to carry the smallest tool-kit.

Regards.

[LEO]

[quote user="Gastines"]

Ref.Plasterers rates. The last time I had a gang of plasterers to finish off some flats in Bournemouthplus render the outside, they were going on to a site in London offering £1000 A DAY to complete a job by a specified day. They used to get all their jobs of an intenet site and travel all over UK.

After Tony Blairs idea that the UK would be the IT centre of the world and schools/colleges stopped teaching any Trades, the result is now being felt in the Building Trade. I think he.TB. forgot that in India/Indonesia and large parts of Eastern Europe ,they could also answer the phone and use a computer for about a tenth of the wage required in UK.

If I ever get to be re-incarnated,which going on my record I doubt, I thought a BT phone engineer would be a good job as they seem to carry the smallest tool-kit.

Regards.

[/quote]

Surely the decline in building/engineering apprentices started in the Seventies,

Tony Blair cannot be blamed for something that happened long before his time in charge

[Gastines]

Leo. He seemed the right choice for the problem today,tomorrow the cause will be blamed on GB.esq.I wish politicians could try and plan ahead instead of trying to score points on each other on the topic of the day. Whilst GB. is trying to put the third world to rights the UK seems to be falling to bits,perhaps it might be an idea to start on the home front first?

Regards.

[LEO]

[quote user="Gastines"]

Leo. He seemed the right choice for the problem today,tomorrow the cause will be blamed on GB.esq.I wish politicians could try and plan ahead instead of trying to score points on each other on the topic of the day. Whilst GB. is trying to put the third world to rights the UK seems to be falling to bits,perhaps it might be an idea to start on the home front first?

Regards.

[/quote]

Maybe "Godron Broon" will have to learn to speak "Polish" if he is to tackle the UK problems!

[Gluestick]

Why do so many people believe that France is wholly different from the UK reference "employing" people? Anyone working anywhere in the world has to join the local system: companies setting up a foreign ofice must accord with the law. As they must in the UK. What's different?

The major differences seem to be:

1.    French authorities will take more swingeing punitive action for those caught working outside the law:

2.    France enjoys a sensible body of law aimed at protecting the consumer, including mandatory project insurance: rather than toothless Trading Standards Officers and wimpy consumer law.

3.    French artisans must be registered with a metiere and, hopefully, qualified: whereas far too many "trades" in the UK can be carried out by the unqualified, skilless and dangerous, including fixing the brakes and steering on people' cars!

If, in the UK one "Employs" a cleaner, this breaks the law, unless the cleaner works for a legitimate agency, e.g. or happens to be genuinely self-employed.

In the UK workers must be either genuinely self-employed or employed. There is no such legal entity as the "Casual Worker".

Employers must have in place mandatory Employer's Liability Insurance and where work can cause injury to the public, Public Liability Insurance, too.

At present, there is a big push to bring pretend self-employed workers into the PAYE system. With the latest ( the third!), revisions to CIS (Construction Industry Scheme), many "Contractors" will find they are not self-employed at all. This has been a convenient dodge to avoid the costs and potential problems of employment by companies: and to avoid tax and NIC by many contractors. The tests for true self-employment are becoming more rigorous and robust year by year.

With an increasingly tough approach by the UK authorities on Money Laundering and the Proceeds of Crime Act, any person assisting another to avoid tax, VAT and/or National Insurance Contributions, is aiding and abetting a money laundering act.

Thus, for example, if a "Friend" agrees to re-wire your house, for cash, you are both committing a series of indictable offences! Particularly where the latest regs on wiring in kitchens and bathrooms are concerned, e.g.

The only real difference to me, seems to be that French authorities take this more seriously: and actually do something, rather than talk about it in parliament.

 

[Will]

Tony Blair and rich plasterers? Have we all forgotten arch Thatcherite Loadsamoney?

Gluestick, I think it would be more correct to say that the French authorities have the power to do something about the problem, rather than actually do something, which they plainly don't.

[Gluestick]

Thanks, Will.

From all the stories I've read and heard in research in particular concerning Provence, it seems that few French nationals there work for anything much other than cash! Pool maintainers, gardeners, decorators etc.

Whilst in the UK they indeed have the powers (the current separation between a Civil Offence and a Criminal Offence becomes ever smaller!), rarely if ever do either the Employment Service or HMRAC invoke the assistance of police officers, other than in the case of massive fraud.

Plus çe change............

 

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

The only real difference to me, seems to be that French authorities take this more seriously: and actually do something, rather than talk about it in parliament.

[/quote]

The real difference to the legally working Artisan is the level of charges levied. A one man band who has been established a couple of years would probably expect to pay about 1200 to 1500 euros a month to cover his social charges and insurances. That could be 75 euros a day which the black worker can undercut or pocket (not to mention TVA)

[Gluestick]

If you add together a UK worker's actual Self Employed costs including Income Tax, Class IV NIC, buying a pension, private health insurance, sickness insurance and etc (since the UK's Social Security provisions, particularly for the self employed, are derisory),  even taking into account the French worker's Mutuel, then in all probability the costs are not wildly different.

And the UK artisan and property owner do not enjoy the current French benefit of only 5% TVA on established properties: all VAT is charged at 17.5% (excepting, of course zero rates and reduced rates on a few non-connected items).

Obviously, anyone working illegally in either jurisdiction can undercut normal trade rates: and more obviously do.

Cowboys be cowboys, whichever range they happen to canter across!

 

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

There seems a bit of confusion: do people working on the black always do a bad job?

[Nick Trollope]

Is that what this discussion is about? No, they don't, I'm sure. But, given that they should not be doing it in the first place, what is the relevance?

 

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

The word cowboy suggests bad, incompetent  workers. I wanted to distinguish them from workers on the black who could of course be quite competent and good though who may or may not be judged for how they do their work. I appreciate the anger of those who are legit but don't theink they should claim to be the only good workers. 

The higher the taxes, the greater amount done on the black. Quite simple really.

 

[Benjamin]

WB/tag wrote

The higher the taxes, the greater amount done on the black. Quite simple really.

I don't have a choice of working on the black but I do pay my taxes and object strongly if my taxes are inflated because peolple are working on the black and not paying their way.

If you want to work on a Saturday to supplement a pittance of a wage then fine but at least do the right thing and pay some tax out of the extra you are making.

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

An update as of today. Thanks to the measures taken by the new government, it seems that workers in some sectors (round here) can work as many hours overtime as they want and are very happy with the new arrangement, particularly as it is tax free. Proves my point. Let the workers work, keep taxes low, black diminishes.

Benjamin, if people work on the black it is because taxes and rules are too high or severe respectively. Catch 22 I think.

[Gluestick]

[quote] The higher the taxes, the greater amount done on the black. Quite simple really.[/quote]

That justification is a wee bit like the "I couldn't survive on minimum wage; that's why I became a drugs dealer!"

If total taxes were only 5%, various duckers and divers would still want to remain outside the system.

I object to fare bilkers, people who don't insure and tax their car: and people who evade their fair share of tax!

Simply, they are trying to take the P!

And not from Government: from the rest of us.

 

[Gastines]

If everyone working paid a flat/same rate on each pound/euro earnt it might make things a lot easier on the workers and the increasing army of tax gatherers who have to sort each persons tax payable out and catch the dodgers. If after earning £7500 P.A. a 10% was payable,it would surely simplify the whole system?

It reminds me of the same type of thing that occurs in my old nome town of Bournemouth virtually every year. There is an influx of "travellers" each summer who park their top of the range caravans/4 wheel drives etc. on public parks and even council car parks. What follows is an outcry about the amount of rubble/rubbish they dump everywhere, followed by complaints about the overcharging for laying the drive,triiming a couple of branches or repairing the roof that didn't need repairing. If the residents didn't try and have a cash job done on the side/black, the conmen wouldn't keep coming back to the area!!!

The best one and it just shows how gullible people are,was the "travellers" collected all the old TV's from the local tip.sprayed the cases with silver paint,wrapped them up in bubble wrap and sold them door to door,for £50 each. I think over 200 people actually admitted to buying them!!!

The police and trading standards are investigating but don't hold your breath.

Regards.

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

No problem with your basic point Gluestick, but I have a problem with systems which don't permit people to work (eg 35 hour week), systems which make people lazy and which create makework, and taxation levels which dont permit people to keep a substantial part of what they earn. In France it has got out of proportion.

Your point about drug dealing is not only valid if no other means are possible I suspect.

Systems which are inefficient are those which allow 'bilkers'. eg TV licence collection is just a jobsworthys' charter. Collect it with the rates and make people prove they don't have a telly. Much simpler, AS IN FRANCE.

Cars, put a disc on the windscreen for insurance or do something with car keys and automatic drive through detection systems. Car tax, eg make it payable in advance on new cars, 10 years ahead.

Not sure how you stop fare bilkers if they jump the barriers. How about ticket barriers with ticket punchers like the old days?

[Benjamin]

I don't know why it is but I can't seem to get the quote function to work with your posts WB/tag.

You wrote

Benjamin, if people work on the black it is because taxes and rules are too high or severe respectively. Catch 22 I think.

One person's opinion and not nesessarily shared.

In my experience most people working on the black don't give a toss about the rate of taxation just so long as they don't have to pay any.

[Gluestick]

[quote] I don't know why it is but I can't seem to get the quote function to work with your posts WB/tag.[/quote]

It's a problem with this forum software at times, Benjamin.

If you ignore the "Quote" function and simply Cut 'N Paste (Highlight with curser, then Control "C" to copy: and then Control "V" to paste into the body of your reply: and then enclose your quote with:

"{quote} text {/quote}" (But use the square brackets: I've used the curved ones to demonstrate! it should be OK.

 

 

[Gluestick]

I totally agree, WB.

Most Western states need to reform their fiscal policies and in particular taxation: this would deprive me of considerable well remunerated professional work! However, I do agree, taxation has become insane and far too complex.

However, my core point was that there is little different between the UK and France.

The self employed, of course are not constrained to a 35 hour week.

And herein, that's who were are discussing, surely?

 

[LesFlamands]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

However, my core point was that there is little different between the UK and France.

[/quote]

The fact that the payments are compulsory and start on day one makes a big difference. A lot of potentially legally minded types have veered away from registering and are working on the black because of the fixed charges due in the first year before they've had a chance to get established.

Property owners are their own worst enemy. They are creating the market for the cut price cowboys because they didn't do their research before taking the plunge and buying a rubbish piece of French real estate. Even with the current inflated prices for old barns you would still need to budget a factor of twice the purchase price for a professional conversion. I meet people all the time that think the French economy runs on buttons.

[Wibblywobbly]

Couldn't help but smile and totally off topic but how many people are aware that the entire United States IRS system is totally illegal. It has no foundation in law, not a shred of documentation exists to make it legal, and it has never been ratified. In other words the US Government has been stealing money from its citizens ever since it was created. If you don't believe me, go check it out.

On the back of that, all dollars are printed by the Federal Reserve and sold to the government plus interest. Every dollar. The more money the government needs, the more interest it owes. It is the real reason why the US economy is going bankrupt.

Back to topic...

I have been trying to get at least a quote out of French registered electricians and plumbers for 12 months, and cannot even get that far? What do I do if a friend offers to travel from the UK and complete the work in a few days, with us both undertaking the work? Turn them down? To date I have used fully qualified and registered French tradesmen to undertake everything from a new fosse and new roof, to concrete floors and new doors and windows. I am now stuck between a rock and a hard place??

Rob G

 

 

 

[oakbri]

If I were you, I would bring your friend over. If the locals don't want the work so be it. A year is long enough to be trying. As far as I understand most of them are probably too busy earning plenty on the black anyway.

DO NOT employ your friend, just bring him over to help you do the work. Nothing illegal there. If, after he gets home, you want to send him a financial "gift", just don't tell anyone.

 

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

Local employees dont need to do balck now as they can earn plenty under the new system.