How do I install UK storage heaters in my house in france

[rog... in france]

Can any body help,

I have 6  UK storage heaters that I want to install in France.

Rating of each storage heater - 2.4KW, 2,4 KW, 1.9KW, 1.9KW, 1.9KW, & 1.9KW

To use all heaters I know I will have to increase the wattage of my electricity supply

There have been some messages posted in the past concerning this but thay were back in 2004.

One message said that they plugged the storage heater into a normal wall socket with a timer to get the off peak electricity, is this possible and is it safe? 

I have rewired my kitchen and bathroom with a new disjoncteur box.

INITIAL INSTALLATION ( to be done to test the heaters) 

The bathroom has 3 wall sockets, wired with 2.5m wire and protected by a 20 A disjoncteur. I have been told by the manufacturer that the heater uses 11 amps so I would think this is safe to plug the heater on a timer into one of the sockets. (Also Is it legal to have a storage heater in the bathroom. The bathroom is very large and the heater would be on the back wall well away from the bath, wash basin and toilet)

The kitchen has 2 wall sockets, which I designated for a washing machine and for a heater, wired with 2.5 m wire and protected by a seperate 20A disjoncteur. The aim is to plug the heater into one of the sockets on a timer.

The rest of the 4 rooms of the house are run off the main fuse box which I aim to replace with a new one. So I do not know what the quality of the wiring is yet.

I may do the above to get heat into the bathroom and kitchen and to test that the heaters are working correctly.

MAIN INSTALLATION OF THE HEATERS

Can any body tell me the approved way of installing the heaters from the main Fuse box/Power supply. I have told to run a seperate cable from each heater back to the main power supply and some how connect it the the off peak electricity. Either by having a seperate Taille du tableau for the 6 heaters and possibly a timer.

Any help or links to sites would be appreciated.

 

Many thanks

Roger

 

 

  

 

 

[Gluestick]

Well the simple answer is you don't!

As they fail to conform to the normes, in all probability !

The normal way to connect such equipment in France is via a Pulse Switch which enables the dedicated circuits nominally at 12.00 midnight and 08.00 AM.

However, firstly you need EDF to provision service for Heures Pleine and Heures Creuse, which means a new meter and a change of abonement, too.

Either Nick or Paul I'm sure will join this thread: both are certified and registered electricians working in France.

 

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Well the simple answer is you don't!

As they fail to conform to the normes, in all probability !

The normal way to connect such equipment in France is via a Pulse Switch which enables the dedicated circuits nominally at 12.00 midnight and 08.00 AM.

However, firstly you need EDF to provision service for Heures Pleine and Heures Creuse, which means a new meter and a change of abonement, too.

Either Nick or Paul I'm sure will join this thread: both are certified and registered electricians working in France.

 

[/quote]

I see nothing wrong with installing storage heaters on dedicated circuits of sufficient size to cope with the power of the heaters in living or bedrooms. In the bathroom, however, the regulatiions are much more proscriptive.   There are various websites which will give you the current normes (here's one http://www.decofinder.com/_daz/_BAINS_SANITAIRE/Sdb_normes_france_epsic.htm) but my reading of it is that a fixed heating appliance - earthed rather than double insulated - may be fitted in zone 3, provided that the supply is via a 30mA DD.

As for the cheap night rate, As Gluestick says, EDF needs to change the meter (and thereafter your abonnenment too) . There is no need for special wiring or a different tableau; the whole house changes to the cheaper rate during the 'Heures Creures'  The hours vary from region to region. Some are even offered a 'boost' couple of hours in the afternoon. (as I type the dishwasher has just come on, which must mean the 2 afternoon cheap hours are upon us).

p

Just re-read you original post and feel I should emphasise the requirement for the heaters to be on dedicated circuits; that is, you can't daisy-chain a socket for a heater and general-purpose sockets on the same cable. The same applies to your washing machine.

[Gluestick]

UK storage heaters, GP?

With no type approval in France?

Fixed appliances, not portable?

 

[Nick Trollope]

Couple of points;

a) That lot adds up to over 9Kw. You will need a minimum 12Kw supply to run them.

b) They won't be approved for use in France, so (techinically) their use is illegal.

c) They must ONLY be connected to a dedicated circuit, each one (more or less) fed back to the tableau. Under no circumstances can you plug them into a wall outlet.

d) Night tariff is available (and the electricity is cheaper than the UK), but as others have said, it must be organised by EDF. To make this lot work, I'd suggest that you would need alot more than the radiators; several disjonctors, a couple of contactors and probably as "deselecteur" to ensure that you supply is protected against over the top current draw...

I install quite alot of electric "accumulator" heaters, but they are rarely this powerful. Yes, UK radiators are much cheaper, but I'd still only install French ones.

[rog... in france]

Thank you Gluestick, Gyn-Paul and Nick Trollope for responding.

I have read and noted all your comments.

IMPORTANTANT POINTS

Firstly I am not going to proceed with this instalation if it was felt to be un safe.

I have re-wired a four bedroom house in the UK and had the complete project passed by the elecricity board but I have not got involved with storage heaters. So I am a bit new to this.

In my house in France I already have installed by EDF the meter for cheap rate electricity. This switches on at 12.00 to 8.00. So this does not need to be changed.

The storage heaters are a spanish make and only 18 months old, they may be acceptable in France.

I may not install all of them. I may only install the 2.4 kw, 2.4 kw and the 1.9 kw. So the total kw will only be 6.7kw therefore I may only need to increase the power supply to 9 kw with EDF.

The proposed storage heater for the bathroom is in zone 3.

Questions

Gluestick, You advised that the normal way to connect such equipment is via a pulse switch to get the cheap rate electricity. Do I need an additional one for the dedicated storage heater circuit as I am already on the cheap rate tarrif and have the meter and equipment installed.

Paul ( Gyn-Paul) , Thanks for the link. You recommended that if the appliance is in Zone 3 it needs to be supplied via a 30 MA DD, please explain what this is.

Nick ( NickTrollope) , You suggested that the heaters should be connected on a dedicated circuit fed back to the tableau. What are the contactors for? and what is a deselecteur for?, please give as much info as possible. 

If any of you know where I can get circuit diagrams for your suggestions I would would really appreciate it.

The way I see this project working, Without having any Technical drawings or information in front of me at present is : -

Connect each heater seperatly with 2.5m wire to a seperate tableau , each heater fused to a 20 A disjoncteur with a switch that will turn the power on at 12.00 and turn off at 8.00. Please advise me if I am wrong.

If I connect these heaters , it is no different to having my water heater, rated at 2.4 kw, my washing machine, rated at 2.4 kw and an electric cooker  and electric hob ( Which I Do Not Have because I use gaz for cooking), approx rating 6kw going at the same time. These items would be drawing the same power.

Thanks for your help,

Best regards.

Rog

 

 

 

 

 

[LEO]

Safe or not safe?

 

2nd hand, UK standard, made in Spain, Installed by amateur in France.

 

 

This has got to be a non runner!

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="LEO"]

Safe or not safe?

 

2nd hand, UK standard, made in Spain, Installed by amateur in France.

 

 

This has got to be a non runner!

[/quote]

Pity the OP isn't Polish or Bulgarian, then you could have clobbered another bird with that particular stone. You missed out the fact that the heaters were probably designed in Italy and the steel rolled in China ! Is that the standard box of stereotypes you're using or the bumper economy size?

p

[powerdesal]

[quote user="LEO"]

Safe or not safe?

 

2nd hand, UK standard, made in Spain, Installed by amateur in France.

 

 

This has got to be a non runner!

[/quote]

Have I missed something? I cant find any reference to the OP saying they were 2nd hand and made in Spain, they are just as likely to be made in France.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="rog... in france"]Nick ( NickTrollope) , You suggested that the heaters should be connected on a dedicated circuit fed back to the tableau. What are the contactors for? and what is a deselecteur for?, please give as much info as possible.

[/quote]

As I said, that lot adds up to (roughly) 10Kw, = about 40A of current draw. A day/night contactor (a relay used to switch devices on at night) is typically rated at 20A, so you will need additional switching (more contactors) to achieve switching of this amount of current. A deselecteur is a device that disables circuits when the overall consumption  in the house excees the maximum rating of the supply.

[quote user="rog... in france"]

If any of you know where I can get circuit diagrams for your suggestions I would would really appreciate it.

[/quote]

Buy a copy of "L'installation electrique" from Amazon. Otherwise, I'll see what I can do.

[quote user="rog... in france"]

The way I see this project working, Without having any Technical drawings or information in front of me at present is : -

Connect each heater seperatly with 2.5m wire to a seperate tableau , each heater fused to a 20 A disjoncteur with a switch that will turn the power on at 12.00 and turn off at 8.00. Please advise me if I am wrong.

[/quote]

Yes, that will work, but, at retail, a decent D/N contactor is about 60€. You don't need a seperate tableau (if you have the room in th old one). You must include an inter. diff. rated at 63A and 30mA in the "new" tableau.

[quote user="rog... in france"]

If I connect these heaters , it is no different to having my water heater, rated at 2.4 kw, my washing machine, rated at 2.4 kw and an electric cooker  and electric hob ( Which I Do Not Have because I use gaz for cooking), approx rating 6kw going at the same time. These items would be drawing the same power.

[/quote]

If you have 10Kw of heating, 2.4Kw of water heater and 2Kw of washing machine going at 3 in the morning, you have a consumption of 14Kw+. You are by no means guaranteed to get this  amount of power from EDF and , imagine you can't sleep and want a cuppa - "pop" goes your EDF breaker, which sod's law has it is at the end of the drive under 2' of snow.

You will need to check that you can get the level of supply that you need and install a deselecteur to protect the supply.

Ask an electrician!

 

 

 

 

[Gluestick]

[quote]

Gluestick, You advised that the normal way to connect such equipment is via a pulse switch to get the cheap rate electricity. Do I need an additional one for the dedicated storage heater circuit as I am already on the cheap rate tarrif and have the meter and equipment installed.[/quote]

I think Nick has now answered this question most effectively.

 

[Iceni]

Sorry Gluey but you miss the point. Nick has given the correct answer not the one that the OP wanted to hear.

John

[Gluestick]

I'm always missing points, lately, John.

It's age, apparently!

Nick said: "As I said, that lot adds up to (roughly) 10Kw, = about 40A of current draw. A day/night contactor (a relay used to switch devices on at night) is typically rated at 20A, so you will need additional switching (more contactors) to achieve switching of this amount of current."

Nick also explained about how such a large current needs separate switching.

If the OP already has his supply contract providing Bi-Rate, then all that's needed is the Day-Night Switch (relay) as above.

But since the total current would be above 20 Amp then needs two or more to handle the load.

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="LEO"]

Safe or not safe?

 

2nd hand, UK standard, made in Spain, Installed by amateur in France.

 

 

This has got to be a non runner!

[/quote]

I did exactly the above, Ok not second hand but bought from BDC and I am certain made in Spain, I used a triphase contacteur to save money and they are working very nicely, I am very warm as I type.

Oh and my installation passed Consuel although I had fitted but not connected the heaters at that stage as they were CE but not NF marked, the inspecteur made no comment.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Nick Trollope"][quote user="rog... in france"][/quote]
y.

[quote user="rog... in france"]
[/quote]

[quote user="rog... in france"]

[/quote]

[quote user="rog... in france"]
.
[/quote]

If you have 10Kw of heating, 2.4Kw of water heater and 2Kw of washing machine going at 3 in the morning, you have a consumption of 14Kw+. You are by no means guaranteed to get this  amount of power from EDF and , imagine you can't sleep and want a cuppa - "pop" goes your EDF breaker, which sod's law has it is at the end of the drive under 2' of snow.

[/quote]

My night storage heaters and the BDC use most of my available current during the HC, I deliberately dont have an electric kettle to avoid the above problem but found that my washing machine (on the same HC switching) used just as much juice and tripped the main DD.

To solve this I have a seperate tableau mounted (1 module) timer that retards the washing machine by about 5 hours at which time the heaters are fully charged and no longer drawing current.

Storage heaters work wel for me but I have a well insulated apartment of 37 metre carré and can stay within the basic abonnement, if the OP has a "normal" sized and insulated house I think that the EDF abonnement will remove any economies.

[Gyn_Paul]

Roger, Have emailed you.

p