Window fitting

[ethelred]

I have a question regarding fitting replacement windows.  Would you expect that when the windows are fitted there would be a 4 -6 inch gap between the frame and the stone?  The windows have been secured with frame fixings and expanding foam filler has been used to fill in some of the gap.  I am a bit confused as to how a window can be said to be fitted when there is gap between the sides and top of the frame.  I have been told that it up to a mason to sort this out.  Has anyone else had experience of this and is it acceptable?

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

This is probably a silly question, but were the windows made to measure or did you buy standard ready-made ones?

Is the window opening the same size inside & out?

A 4-6 inch gap is big enough to put your fist through so it doesn't sound right.

[ethelred]

A couple were made to measure and the others where standard.  The company came and measured up.  The window openings are bigger on the inside that the outside.

[Val_2]

Sounds like a horrendous bodge-up. What I can tell you from the mouth of a court appointed building expert when he saw the doors and windows on a site we did some work on and that were nothing to do with us,is that he was horrified to see even tiny gaps around the windows and doors and said the whole thing should have been done again properly and it was not for a maçon to make good either unless agreed with the window company and client. Suggest you get them back to fit them again,4-6" can let a lot of weather in.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="ethelred"]A couple were made to measure and the others where standard.  The company came and measured up.  The window openings are bigger on the inside that the outside.[/quote]

So are the windows mounted in the inner part with the frames overlapping the edges of the smaller, outer part, or are they so small that you can see several inches of daylight around them?

From what I've gleaned so far it sounds something like the first case. In that situation the windows should be weathertight but need either wood or stone infill around them -- how this is to be done depends on your taste and any requirements stated when you ordered the windows 

If the window frames are actually much smaller than the outside (smaller) part of the opening then you have a total bodge and reason to complain.

[BIG MAC]

If the windows look correct from the outside I would suggest that the gap back to the reveal internally may be due to an old timber casing having been removed and needing rebuilt?

Windows in France are often set in a rebate in the masonry however off the shelf windows may not have as large a frame as the preceding units this can create a 'Gap' internally as the most important thing is to achieve the openings lining up and looking correct. I am having some shop bought openers set into handmade oak frames for this very reason. Hope this helps.

[ethelred]

Thanks everyone for your replies.  I have relooked at the windows again and I think the issue is caused by the fact that the walls are not straight.  The windows have been put in plumb but the walls are not.  This is what is causing the gaps of up to 6 inches with daylight (and rain) coming through.  I suppose the only option is to mix up a large amount of concrete and fill all the gaps.  Oh joy.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Preferably not 'concrete' in an old stone wall. Cement-based concrete, mortar or render are all going to cause long term problems.

If you need to DIY I'd suggest filling the gaps with stone mortared in with a lime mix. If it looks too rough when complete then just render over with lime as well.

[Gluestick]

A professional and reputable window company would have insisted that prior to their attempting to fit new - square - windows into obviously diabolically irregular holes, that the walls were regularised.

The fact that you already have large areas of expanded foam, means that you must firstly remove this, before proceeding.

What puzzles me is precisely what sort of fitting did the installers used to secure the new frames to the walls?

The correct sort of masonary fittings don't usually come optionally with an extra six inches of length, apart from what is inserted into the walls!

Alternatively, they have simply fasted the frames "Where the touch or nearly touch".

Which then creates yet a further problem as the frames will be liable to "Swing and Tilt".

As both the frames and walls expand and contract, the frames will move: if theya re too tight in places, then they will squash and probably crack the glass.

To me, this project needs the frames removing; the foam cleaning off; the walls correctly sorted (as Albert states, using the right lime-based mortar and even some smaller infill stone), to produce a reasonably square receiving hole; and the new windows re-fitting with the correct - minimal - expansion gap, into which the frames are bedded with new foam and correct number of secure fixings.

 

[ethelred]

I thought I was using a professional and reputable window company and believe that is what I have paid for. 

I agree that the best way would be to sort the holes out.  However having paid to have the windows installed I am loath to have to take them out and refit them myself.

[Gluestick]

Sadly, I fear that if you don't, from your description of the work, you will be storing up serious problems for the future.

Personally, if I had have employed a correctly bonded and registered French artisan to undertake this work, I would next employ the services of another, to quote for the work to be rectified and supply a fully detailed Devis (which I would have to pay for) and then complain bitterly to the original installers, their metiere etc.

Of course, it may well be that the original installers did query the irregularity of the appertures and placed either a verbal caveat or written caveat on their undertaking this project if the masonary was not first regularised.

Did you in fact receive a written Devis? Is your technical - building - French good enough to understand all that they said?

Not being rude, please understand, just attempting, remotely, to provide some assistance.

Bottom line is that their work would be covered by a ten year Government underwritten insurance against faulty materials and workmanship: if they are correctly registered for this sector of building works.

And quite clearly, from what you say, six inch gaps with rain penetrating already, is not good workmanship!

[BIG MAC]

Windows fitted into lozenged reveals not a good idea. I would suggest they were fitted plumb but behind the reveals using hardwood slipper frames (Not ideal but this will allow you to seal windows to the back of the reveals then quadrant them to get an acceptable appearance outside. It sounds like they are trying to cover up a miss-measure.

[powerdesal]

ethelread,

Many posters have offerred advice but it would perhaps be helpful if you post some photos illustrating the problem. I find it difficult to get a real mental picture of the situation. A picture is worth a thousand words (if you can do it)

[ethelred]

As suggested, I have a couple of photos of the windows from inside and outside:

[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn279/ethelred_photos/P1010325.jpg[/IMG]

Photo of the outside of the house

[IMG]http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn279/ethelred_photos/P1010322.jpg[/IMG]

Photo of the inside of the house

[Gluestick]

Quite clearly, all the installers have done is fit the new frames, in plumb, on the inside edge (bottom).

Do you have stone cills?

They really ought to have placed a caveat on their work, if the walls were not going to be regularised: I most certainly would have!

Personally, I would really start from the beginning: whatever you try is going to look rather odd.

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Sorry to sound picky, but I can't see any gaps between the wood and the stone that would let weather through. Assuming that the new window frame has been installed plumb then the problem appears, from these pictures, to be cosmetic. I don't think it looks good but I can't see any 6-inch gaps anywhere (unless I've been underestimating myself all my life). Even the offset between the stepped stone and the wooud looks like two inches, maximum.

If I'd been involved in the installation I'd have first put in a simple wooden outer frame, scribed to fit, and then measured and installed the actual window frames to that.

[Boiling a frog]

It appears that your walls are not straight (plumb) and that the windows have in fact been installed correctly.You will have to look at your contract to see if it included finishing off as many do not.

[BIG MAC]

AHA! All becomes clear....I would take em out and use a water cooled diamond wheel in a grinder to cut a new vertical mortice/ rebate...At least there seems nowt wrong with the windows just the fitting. The other thing you could do is fill the gaps with mortar then install a hardwood cover fillet.

[Gyn_Paul]

Have a heart Albert ! With the weather as it is at the moment, it's never going to set, and the poor OP will be washing rain-sluced lime of the ground for ever !

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Lovely & sunny here in 56 (Morbihan) at the moment. Walking on the beach yesterday & Mrs IG went paddling.