photovoltaique installations in conjunction with EDF

[Bob T]

[quote user="gyn_paul"]

I'm just getting round to thinking about a solar hot water system..

What sort of system do you have Bob, flat plate or evacuated tube? 

      How big/how many?

         What size tank does it feed?

            How many in your household?

               Was any of the cost reclaimable?

Dare one ask the capital cost? - this is not because I'm thinking about the payback time... I've always thought this to be an odd concept for anything involving a free energy source, After all you don't (unless you are a company accountant dealing with write-down and depreciation of assets) consider the 'payback' of anything else you buy, no this is simply to add it to the huge list of things I probably won't have any money left for when the renovations are finished/stopped by lack of funds.

 

p

[/quote]

Evacuated tube. I did some research into the subject and decided that they were the more efficient.

About 16 tubes, I think, feeding a 350 litre tank. The big change was that the electric tank was smaller with the water stored at a cooler temperature than the 80C ish that we have now. It mixes the water with cold to bring it down to 60C for the taps.

Just two of us normally, but we have had people staying so that there are 5 having showers and have never run out of hot water in the summer.

The hardware part is 50% claimable and that was a total of €2800, so we should get €1400 back.

The system is made in Germany by Paradigma, and is all German made.

I know that it may take time to get pay back for the system, but I did not have it fitted as an investment. If I wanted to save money I would stop smoking or drinking coffee in cafes!

[Poolguy]

[quote user="Quillan"]I have one question about solar energy be it to heat water or provide electricity. If it were really that good then why does not any government, especially in Europe, pass a simple law that says all new houses must be built with this stuff installed?[/quote]

 

That is the case in Ireland I believe and should be the case everywhere. The planning laws specify that at least ONE renewable MUST be present in EVERY new build. This sort of measure probably will eventually come in throughout Europe – Ireland is usually the first at this sort of thing. But it’s a highly political issue everywhere and particularly in France and bound up with the position EDF have in Europe as an income earner for France.

Photovoltaic doesn't stack up financially, that has been a 'known' for decades. You have to get into concentrated Photovoltaic (CPV) on a large scale before the numbers go in the right direction. On the Domestic scale as an investment is the right reason to say yes. Its an environmental reason that you would engage a company to turn your roof into a factory and invest a meagre €20k+ on energy production; result-€4-8/kwh (LCOE)

But Solar thermal on the other hand does make sense as its far lower tech, and the cost the energy it replaces is much higher. Not only is it ecological, its smaller too you don't need so many M2 and you can start with a small domestic HW system say 10 or 15 tubes and then build up to greater things if you want. I've got DHW and space heating and can add pool heating to get performance out of the system 12 months of the year If I want.. result €0.20- €1.2/kwh (LCOE)

Glue stick’s rational is fine if you like that sort of thing but Glyn P's question is right on for me. Why should every purchase hinge on a payback? Never saw anyone do that on the metal monster in the drive, nor the rayburn for that matter. It's a thing.... a preference about they way you want to live. I live with most of my needs under my own control (excluding mains Electric), I'm not a slave to the oil/gas delivery man and the whims of the global oil market. I like that.... I says who I am, but I'm not waiting for the time to arrive (sometime in the next 5 years) when I walk taller or my chest gets broader because my investment has been consumed by savings, I'll surely never notice that moment passing.

So I prefer to think that nearly everyone does things or decides what they want to buy on a whim because it suits them - the tendency to over think these things gets nothing at all done.

I say Solar thermal is the most sensible renewable.

Andrew

 

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Poolguy"]

Photovoltaic doesn't stack up financially, that has been a 'known' for decades. You have to get into concentrated Photovoltaic (CPV) on a large scale before the numbers go in the right direction. On the Domestic scale as an investment is the right reason to say yes. Its an environmental reason that you would engage a company to turn your roof into a factory and invest a meagre €20k+ on energy production; result-€4-8/kwh (LCOE)

[/quote]

Inaccurate comments Andrew: as with all technology, as production volumes rise then absolute costs fall. In the past ten years, great advances have been made in the use of different substrates and methods: additionally, Thin Film technology probably offers a viable way forward as part of large new builds (e.g.s office blocks, government offices etc) since the film can form part of the glass: which is a building on-cost anyway. Additionally, PV is becoming part of an integrated holistic energy/environment consideration with major buildings; in suitable locations.

[quote]But Solar thermal on the other hand does make sense as its far lower tech, and the cost the energy it replaces is much higher.[/quote]

Depends on geographic location: and capital cost: and lifecycle.

Heat and energy conservation approaches have been bedevilled by unsupportable and rash claims since the earliest days of double glazing!

The same still happens with Air Source Heating: Solar: Small Wind Turbines a la B&Q etc.

Now unless one is a manic Green and since the raison d'etre for installing solar water heating is to reduce energy consumption costs, then the capital acquisition cost must figure in any Go-No Go value judgement. Since any putative cost saving must be corrected by the amortised capital front costs over the lifecycle of the installation.

With Bob's post earlier, the clue to his satisfaction probably lies in his location: Dordogne: having just recently returned from France my weather experience (May 30th into June) was such as to negate any benefit from Solar DHW.

Interestingly, the following source quotes in excess of a 19 year payback period for Solar in Britain! And longer for the USA!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_heating

As I said earlier in this post, at present, real cost is clouded by subsidy.

 

[Bob T]

Here we go, back to investment again. Why do people worship money so much?

My wife has a motorbike, she did not buy it for an investment - it costs more in fuel and tyres than the car does, but she gets pleasure out of it. I also get pleasure out of having loads of showers with my solar hot water.

Money, I have enough to survive on, but have got away from that very British obsession of having to have more of it than you will ever need. I am a time millionaire, I have loads of that and no one can buy it as my time is not for sale, I may offer to give some of it away to help others, but they cannot buy it!

Perhaps some of the money worshippers think that I should have left the cost of the solar water in the bank and taken it with me when I die, but looking at a bank statement does not make me as happy as a nice hot shower.

[Gluestick]

Sorry, Bob.

You miss the point.

It aint investment: it's all about actual cost.

Presumably, your good lady wife doesn't need the mobike: anymore than I need my Breitling Navitimer.

A cheap quartz watch would tell me the time equally well.

Hovever, that's about choice: and indulgent luxury. Same as your wife's bike.

 

[Dog]

I just got back from Crete and noticed a lot of houses with a very simple and cheap solar water heater on the roof.

It's just a metre and a half square black plastic tank with perhaps 125mm indented panels.

The buy back schemes for solar electricity are rather interesting - as it is based on the big producers having to buy 'green' energy at a premium rate as they produce so much ungreen electricty.

I wonder how long it will be before an unscrupulous indivual sets up a PV plant and also wires the grid in to send electricty back thus buying cheaply from the grid and selling it back at an artificially high price.

The way forward is miniature nuclear plants.

[Poolguy]

Well Mr Glue

What can I say, should I humble myself before your incite... your vision, your enthusiasm for matters algorithmic and allegoric. You post voluminously on the subject but do you have any of these systems yourself to speak from any worthwhile experience whatsoever? Or its it........ Wikipedia, which constitutes or frames your views on the subject, be they ever so intransigent.

This is... and this isn't. (la  de da ) If I understand anything of what you say (I don't really) then you are for Solar PV and against Solar thermal........;;; no wait, lets do that again.

Your saying that Solar thermal is good so long as you don't also have a motorbike, because .....; um  (now I'm lost.) and PV is good but its not there yet because you have to have a holistic large building?????   (Oh my god .. thanks god  its Friday.)

Your saying that nothing really works because you live in Belgium (near enough) and so if it doesn’t work there then it does work in France (period)? (hope  got right....)

But Glue (old chap) Bob lives in the Dordogne (and very nice too) he says it works

I live in Charante Maratime and anyone who want to can see that mine works just fine, the results are on my website

There are dozens of others living in Brittany and they say 'it works great' mate

There is a company I know in the UK (starting with N) selling more than 400 systems a months to people who must think that it will work otherwise (I guess) why would they buy it?

I know of a lot in Scotland too that have a lot to say about it. And hey, the Germans ('don't mention the war') well they have more systems than any country in the world (per capita) well maybe they don't get s much sun as Belguim may be they do. (who am I to say)

So mate, answer me this with all those people who have systems and are happy with them, you must think that they are all raving loonies, noddies, dimwits and losers because ......

well ..why do you think that. Oh I know 'its a 19 year payback'. Really!!!!

Well just as you can prove the numbers don't make sense someone else can use the same numbers and prove that they do.

What's important is 'does it make me happy to have a solar system on my roof', Yes it does. Yes!

And the same is true for all the people I know who choose to do that same thing; It makes them happy,  -  so the numbers are meaningless.

All in good fun you see!

Andrew

 

 

 

 

[Gluestick]

Andrew:

You must have hit the absinthe pretty hard tonight.

Now if your remember, a couple of years ago, 'twas moi who pointed you in  the direction of Solar Aircon: remember? Does that orientate you regarding my own thinking and support, in essence for alternative energy?

And let's face it: you sell solar systems: so you are hardly biased!

[:D]

Deduct the government subsidies: and compute again.

http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/9535/german-renewable-heating-support-scheme-cut/

[Bob T]

But even if you deduct the government subsidies, owning a solar system of any sort can make people happy. When I go out for a meal I don't work out the calories in the meal against the price of that meal to see if it is a good investment, I buy it to enjoy it. The same goes for my solar hot water system. I would have had it fitted even if it had cost twice as much, because I wanted it.

What you are telling Andrew is cods wallop, a Rolls Royce salesman sells Rolls Royce cars, and tells you how good they are, but that does not mean they are rubbish just because he sells them.

[Bob T]

This obsession with money and investments can be quite amusing at times.

A visitor asked me last week how much my house is worth. I smiled and told her that I have no idea. She looked very puzzled, so I explained that I had bought the house to live in and not bought it to sell it!

[Quillan]

It seems to me that if you are building a new house then to put all these things in might not be such a bad idea and possibly cheaper than 'retro fitting' to an existing house.

I am not too worried about having things to make me feel good, I am purely and simply interested in saving money or more to the point outgoings per month. When I buy something I look to see what I am going to get from what I buy. A fast car gives me fun but its not practicable for going shopping with the wife and dog. When it comes to more practical things then I want to know what the benefit is. My attitude is 'I'm all right Jack' so I don't really care about an environment (to a point but I do recycle), I can't see i.e. the ozone layer, bit like God if he/she exists and anyway I don't believe in the man made global warming myth. So I would be in to buying this type of kit for what I can get out of it financially from a monthly bill point of view. I also like people who give away money so my intention when I build my house is to add anything (within reason) that gives me a grant and saves on the monthly bills.

Bit like installing my air pump heating. Its cost me 2,400 Euros but its saving me around 900 Euros a year in heating bills as I have electric radiators. That to my mind means if I stayed in my house for 3 years or less then there would be no point in fitting them but as I am staying for more then its going to be a saving. By seeing cheaper electricity bills immediatly I feel that I am getting an advantage straight away.

[Chancer]

Another reason that people are seduced by photovoltaic or heat pump installations and one that is not lost on the salespeople is those in retirement with savings.

Where they might once have had €100, €200, €500 (choose your own figure) of interest coming in per month on their nest-egg now it will be a fraction of that.

Times are hard and now they are little by little eating away at their capital just to pay the normal monthly bills, and of those what is the most significant? The energy used for heating and hot water.

Now they can either do nothing and struggle to continue paying the gas/electric of fueil bills or invest some of the nest egg before it runs out on something which will reduce their monthly bills and make them better off on a day to day basis especially if it is aided by the government.

I probably havnt explained it very well but you can take Quillan's case as an example, the interest on €2400 of savings woud buy you one baguette a week if you are lucky, do nothing and it would be spent in 3 years on electricity, invest now and you have an immediate benefit of €75 per month enugh for a few meals out.

I dont think his example included any credit d'impôt, if it did he would have had to have added a zero to his purchase price [;-)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

I dont think his example included any credit d'impôt, if it did he would have had to have added a zero to his purchase price [;-)]

[/quote]

Each unit (inverter type) cost 399 Euros (Brico Depot) and we bought 6 to replace 6 x 2kw heaters. I guess in truth you could add another 200 Euros on (total) for brackets, screws and sealers. We actually get more heat (each unit gives 2.8kw) for only 40% of the price it cost to run our old heaters plus if we want we can have a/c in the summer but we try not to use it as it somewhat defeats the object plus we got by before without a/c. Given that we bought and installed them ourselves we got no rebate.

[Chancer]

Thats what I meant Q.

Its a shame that you didnt get a devi from a (and it hurts me to use this word) proffesional installation firm so that we could have a good laugh, I reckon an extra zero would be about right, but most clients dont see that they are being ripped off they are blinded at the thought of getting something back from les impôts. 

Soem friends recently had an insert woodburner fitted, the shop subbed out the installation to a couple of guys who were actually very competent, unrushed and finished the job comfortably within the day including building a cloison housing effectively closing off the corner of the room at 45 degrees.

Oh and the cost before credit d'impôts was €7500 [:-))]

[Quillan]

I know somebody who had one of those round Scandinavian wood burners fitted, nice piece of furniture about 1.2M high, run a pipe up the wall for a chimney (nice bit of Stainless Steel, very shiny) and they ended up lighter by about the same amount. Problem is they live on the second floor and have the logs delivered to the front door, he and his wife carry them upstairs (no lift) at which point he cuts them all in half and stacks them on the balcony because 50cm logs won't fit the fire. Both are in their 70's, not an ideal situation. Of course their very canny and have managed to get away without registering for tax and healthcare in France (don't want to pay tax here and they have paid NI all their life in the UK and don't see why they should pay for healthcare in France) so won't be claiming any money back. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[gyn_paul]

I'm coming to the conclusion that it's something about wood burners.

I've just had a devi (well it was from the UK so it was a quote really, I suppose) for the top end of a 153mm flue from a wood burner. The flue, in black stove enamel runs up the full height of the room to just one side of the ridge, and the quote was for just the materials for the structure from there on up: ceiling adaptor, 2 m of twin-wall stainless steel flue, gasket for tiles, cap. Total ? just short of £1000.

This came in the post at the same time as a bill for all the piping, manifolds, and control gear, etc. for 5 rooms (total area of about 275 sqm) of underfloor heating which came to only a bit more than twice that.

Doesn't seem right, somehow.

 

p

[Richard Saunders]

Has anyone actually had a PV installation fitted?

I've read all the replies on this page, and they generally seem somewhat sceptical.

Having researched it, at the current buy-back rate, I think it might be worth pursuing.  I have just received a quote from Planet Bloo in Laval.

But - has anyone actual experience of a PV system?

Richard