stone walls :

[Bill]

I have never lived in a stone house, but that's what we have bought.. The walls are 0.5 m thick. stone with about two inches of plaster, 90 percent in good condition.  area, at a guess   400 sq m of external walls and  ceilings of 344 sq m.

 

 

the rooms are at the moment  pretty cold, some broken windows but then its winter, and there has been no heating for five years.

 

there is damp in one or two rooms , but then the drains are blocked  or the window isn't right.. .

 

the builders are all saying, we should line the walls, insulate them and some form of  dry lining is my best guess/description  of their intentions.

 

I  have a house in the Uk which is lime and skinny thin walls. Timber frame.  Our thinking is , you let the lime breath , the fires or the sun sucks out any moisture and the world is a happy place, . .

the  builders seem VERY VERY VERY  keen on this insulation , however I am thinking it will make the house rot, yes they understand the need for an airgap between insulation and the wall,  but then  the house will be so well insulated we will almost suffocate !   ..

 

Bearing in mind the fact we  will use this place occasionally..  maybe in the cool months as well as summer .. , What would you do ? . what are your thoughts and experiences assuming u have a thick stone walled house  |?

 

 just wanting to hear what others have to say..

 

Bill

 

 

[andyh4]

Bill

 

I would insulate.  Your thick walls are a massive thermal store but the insualting value of them is well nigh zero.

Even if you do not benefit form the insulation when you come to sell the property (or your inheritors do) the energy efficiency report will give you an A or B rather than a G.

 

We renovated a barn which by the sounds was in a similar situation to yours and insulated throughout except for a small separate storage area.  The difference in temperatures - summer and winter  - is very marked between the store and the living area.  No problems with damp and on the basis of what we have found, a second building has been similarly insulated and I will be setting to myself in the store to bring that up to scratch.

[BIG MAC]

The French builders are correct.

Delta or similar studded membrane, Kingspan if you can afford it, metal stud and fibre insulation Trois Isolante I think they call it run your cables in gaine (Trunking) with access at changes of direction / connections. then foil backed board. They tend to tape and joint rather than plaster.

The studded membrane allows moisture to travel up and down and in and out of the masonry...keeping the living area isolated and warm...cold walls mean little capillary action. stable temperatures mean less erosion through damp transmission.

Anything you can do to prevent a thermal bridge will pay dividends..and will not promote rot. May be an idea to drill and inject rafter tails with preservative as access may be slightly impaired. Important to finish the membrane high between the rafters and breathing to eaves or chamber joist space..dont try and close the gap...very little moisture will climb that high.

Upstairs less neccessary and you may elect to use polystyrene backed plasterboard on jacking screws or adhesive dabs. window reveals can be tricky due to space...I chop back all the render etc...fit the new windows (Having treated the edges to be concealed in the rebate) then I slide kingspan in behind the edge of the frame (Worth considering sizes when ordering windows) Then 'Aquapanel' cementitious showel panel which is a thin but strong sheet material I grip fill the area that slides behind the window frame then drywall screw to the first metal montant (stud) under where the plaster edge bead will be...this makes a very solid and moisture resistant solution.

[Bill]

Thankyou so far  Andy and Big mac ..   I was dead against.. must change my mind..

 

They tend to tape and joint rather than plaster.  so how to finish as we intended to paint.. ? don't you end up with lines ?

 

Bill

 

[Alex H]

[quote user="Bill"]don't you end up with lines ?

 [/quote]

No - and even amateurs can do it [IMG]http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu210/alexh01/smile-1-1.jpg[/IMG]

[Loiseau]

Bill, I would go for insulation wherever you are having work done, including the roof if you are renewing it.

We had a holiday cottage re-roofed many years ago, and decided not to go with the builder's recommendation to incirporate insulation on the grounds that we were only usuig it in the summer.  But a few years down the line, when we found we came at all sorts of out of season times, boy did we regret it!   You could almost see the expensive electric heat escaping from the bedroom!

On the point of leaving an air gap where the new lining reaches the top of the old walls...

I would suggest maybe fixing a strip of expanded metal, or even chicken wire, lying horizontally along the gap at the top, still allowing air - but not local wildlife - to circulate.  My current house had the walls lined, but all night long I can hear the patter of tiny feet as rodents come climbing up the gap between lining and old wall to reach the attic space above the bedroom, scamper across the attic floor, and depart by the similar gap at the top of the opposite wall.  Don't ask me why they choose this circuitous route, but it can be disconcerting when you're trying to drop off to sleep, especially as they hop on and jump off the rafters as they go, making a noise like giants in 7-league boots.   My attic floor is really just a wooden ceiling, so not strong enough to take my weight, otherwise I would crawl around and fix the netting stuff myself.

Angela

[BIG MAC]

I was rather expectin the walls to be sufficiently good to prevent means of entry and the delta to be a further barrier however as Loiseau points out they could somehow get into the fibreglass insulated space I suppose...Eml or similar would help prevent this ( I havent bothered as we have only ever had one mouse and it is now deceased..;-)

[Bill]

thankyou everyone for input.. doing it the french way :)

 

bill

[Rob Roy]

[quote user="Alex H"][quote user="Bill"]don't you end up with lines ?

 [/quote]

No - and even amateurs can do it [IMG]http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu210/alexh01/smile-1-1.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]

As long as you rub down the joints really well you shouldn't have any problems. My husband insists on two thinner coats of jointing rubbed down between coats rather than one too thick coat; but then he was a panel beater and can see an uneven surface a mile away!

We also found that using the undercoat paint for plasterboard you get over here (the cheapest 10L one you can find) is excellent as a base before your top coat. It's sucked up by the plasterboard and looks rubbish as you apply it but once dry you suddenly find you have a decent base for your top coat. 

Re the stone walls - like many others on here we've had exposed stone walls without any adverse effects, so I don't understand why you shouldn't have them; the most important thing is that the chaux is in excellent condition, re-pointing is well worthwhile if you have any doubts about it at all. If the plaster is not letting the stone breath could that be causinng your damp problem?

[pachapapa]

Old french houses do have an "enduit" on them but it is not a plaster and does not in fact stop the wall breathing.

I agrre with you RR on the aesthetic character of stone walls and as for their insulation at night they positively glow when viewed in the infra-red range of the spectrum.[;-)]

[Bill]

Thankyou everyone... .   I am still dithering /second thoughts/trying to understand ,   as the french way is quite different to what I am being told here in the UK   :(

 

In the meantime  

 

what is     bureau of Etude

 

rgds

Bill

[Jay]

what is     bureau of Etude

A consulting firm. (Bureau d'études)

[pachapapa]

Difficult one but a place where technicians and engineers design and develop a project.

One architect with scale and a drawingboard to a group designing AB 400s in toulouse.

[Bill]

OK I get it.. the word was used in a sentence, so its been used as a type of slang.. its ok ..

[chazzee]

Hi, To giving an good anwser to your question, someone would have to give you a investigation report for you to make the right decision. Dont do anything until you have this. Look on a website ( SPAB ) IF YOU NEED MORE HELP GET IN CONTACT. FRANK RESTORER OF OLD BUILDINGS.

[Bill]

Thanks,  I know spab,   they  offer some good guidance.

 

Most people on the forum and in fact most of the french people and  involved in my project are all saying " cover

insulate and board up." .  

 All  have air movement and ventilation on their mind.

 None the less, I am sure Spab would have forty fits .. but I am not dealing with a listed building here, I want a place that gives me no issues in 20 years time.

 I am still working on the rights and wrong,  ..It's all very hard to ID the real faults with a house that hasn't had much care or attention for 20 years or more ..I believe I will soon have the measure of the issues following my visit next week. (ground levels blocked drains and the like which are easy to resolve )

rgds

Bill

 

 

[eternal optimist]

I'm new to the forum - and to old French houses - so be gentle with me. I hear what everyone is saying about insulation of stone walls - our house is currently rated G on ALL the measures - but what do you do when you have beautiful cornicing and mouldings all over the walls and ceilings? The character of the house - the mouldings etc - is why we bought in the first place. If we insulate on the inside, losing up to 8 cm of wall, we will lose all the features.. Do we just do the roof and windows/doors etc, and resign ourselves to the fact that our stone walls will be heating the village? Or is there something clever we can do to improve the situation AND keep the character of the house?

Oh and HOW do you add the emoticons to posts??????

[Bill]

Yes    everyone in France says  insulation, insulation and insulation . However in the end, it is a matter of choice. Our builder is a little grumpy as we  finally said no ! We are not there often enough. insulation French style doesn't come for nothing either !

Do you want to look at the features in your house , or do you want a plain box ?

I guess it depends on your required living temperature and the depth of your pockets as heating oil is quite expensive in France. You may also do  a calculation of comparing the capital cost with the anticipated saving .   We live at a fairly low temprature in the UK, old house with lots and lots and lots of air leaks, so solid walls with  no gaps will be a first for us ! ..

I think you need to consider the type of heating.. The french have some very clever options , all be it fairly expensive in terms of capital cost. Fantastic wood burners which are very decorative, (I saw one last week for euro 8000, 1.5 m wide and painted/decorated  enamal , stunning !)  but our house is not our main house, so I declined the opportunity .

air to air heating,  air to water, solar, wood to..  etc etc etc. Boilers which seem to be a  size to run the Queen Mary, I rather suspecdt they are built to last , superb quality and designs .

The floor heating option , sounds clever in as much as the heat rises from the floor past you ( warming you in the process) and then up to the empty space above you.  Instead of  from radiators  to the empty space /spiders on the ceiling,  and upwards!

If you are worried about the heating cost .. consider double glazing the window units u have, that will help enourmously. U can just replace the glass  panes not the whole structure. Maybe insulate the loft ? I seem to recall about 30 percent of heat loss is thru the loft.

 If your walls are damp, that's something else, & is  not a heating issue, and in our case it's reducing the levels of the outside earth by 6 inches and putting in a french drain at 30 inches . We have removed the floor and will replace with insulated concrete floor with wood on top.

someone mentioned spabs, and it will be worth while downloading their booklet for a couple of quid.

 I must of changed my mind ten times over this issue. [8-)]

Good luck,

rgds

Bill

 

[Bill]

many different views..

 

http://carbonlimited.org/2007/03/05/the-myth-of-stone-walls-as-insulation/

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=241

heat loss calculator .   

http://www.resurgence.org/education/heac.html

Bill

[eternal optimist]

Thank you Bill!

I too have lived in very old draughty buildings and huddled round an open fire watching the heat shoot out of the chimney. At the moment we are living in an 'insulated-to-within-an-inch-of-it's-life" new build box of a house - and we spend our entire lives complaining that there is 'no air' and opening doors and windows! Even in the soggy English winters. I think as you suggest - moderation is key. We will do the double glazing and the roof and anything else that does not trash the character of the house - and then take the hit in our wallets for the heating.

Thanks for the links too - and menawhile, back to the emoticons? HOW do I add them??? It just WILL NOT LET ME DO IT! Just as it wont let me do paragraphs or leave spaces - maybe this is a Mac issue? Driving me NUTS

[just john]

I have posted on this several times but was unable to find previous posting; depending on what other works are required my French builder took a different enlightened view, that the character of the walls were there to be appreciated, not covered up, so his course of action was to insulate the ground floor and the roof, simply renovate the stone walls with pierre apparent, The floor was tiles and concrete onto earth, these were dug out, a dpm laid followed by celotex insulation and a screed before retiling. the roof was basically water tight but a bit tired, so it was completely removed, new oak beams to replace the tired stuff (more rotten than was thought) and then new insulated panels complete with rafters and plasterboard laid.  http://www.laydex.com/documents/TechnicalDetails.pdf 
The result is a cool house in the summer and a warmer house in the winter.