parsnips

[quote user="Hester"]Blevinsfranks  say that treatment of goverment service pensions and UK rental incomes are not changed under the new treaty and  that the taux effectif should still be applied to such income.   They refer to article 24(3){a}{ii} of the treaty. Couldn't cut and paste but googled "avoiding double taxaton in France under the New Treaty". Hester. [/quote] Hi,    In the past I have found Blevins Frank's website advice marginally less reliable than that of the "Correxion".   I have just looked at the article you refer to and , in addition to being quite old, (I saw it over a year ago), it is such a mish-mash of half-digested gibberish it is impossible to sensibly criticise it .

[quote user="Grecian"]Hello parsnips Certainly not doubting your word regarding submitting a 2074 form to show the workings for any capital gain/loss on share dealings. Up to now I have submitted 4 French tax returns all of which I paid an account to produce, and he never provided me with a 2074 form to submit, and to date I have not submitted a 2074 form to the tax office, just filled in the profit or loss box on the 2042. The authorities have accepted all my returns and have never asked for a 2074 form to be submitted. This year I am filling out my own tax form, and not using an accountant, if I hadn't read this thread I would have been totally oblivious that the 2074 even existed, so now you have got me thinking as to whether I should include one this year, or just carry on as I have been doing. Sacré bleu! Also I have never submitted a 2041SP (sounds like I should have used a different accountant!) to show any losses. The first year I never told my accountant that I had made a loss, as I did not know the loss had to be reported, so each year since my accountant carried forward the loss reporting it on a separate sheet of paper, and has taken any gains off that loss, and not declared them on the 2042. Although last year I made a loss and he declared the loss on the 2042, and again the authorities accepted it. I really have to show my ignorance now, I see this year the tax credit on UK shares is 17.7%, whereas last year it was only 11.2%, does this mean an increase of 6.5% in the amount of tax that will have to be paid on UK share dividends? If I have read it correctly Hollande has removed the €3000 tax allowance for a couple on share dividends, so that will be putting the tax bill up as well. [/quote] Hi,      First the extra tax credit of 17.7% ( I'm not sure if they haven't made a misprint on the form!) but it means you gain as you get 17.7% of your net dividend subtracted from your final tax bill (transfer the figure from 2047 to 2042C box TA to get that credit)       I also have never used those forms - I was quoting from an official guide to try to be extra correct, but sending the figures on plain paper seems to be accepted.  In fact , this year I suggest you just put your final figures at 3VG on form 2042, and have the other papers ready to send in , if asked.

[quote user="Manon"]Hoping someone can help ! We have sold substantial amounts of shares and made an overall loss which needs to go on the tax form this year. I think we just have to enter the total gain and the total loss but how do we carry forward the excess loss for next year ? Do we have to even declare anything for this year as all profits were wiped out ? Also, I hold some shares in an ISA and the dividends are paid gross. However, they are 'acceptable ' shares so I should get the 40%  allowance against them but the boxes only seem to allow for the net dividends to be entered  - it would be lovely to have some idea of the solution before I see the tax people next week. Any advice gratefully received ! [/quote] Hi,      If you sold and calculated your gains/losses yourself (which I assume you did) , you should complete form 2074 showing the calculation and transfer to  2042 page 3 section 3,gain 3VG or loss 3VH ;  losses for previous years are carried forward on form 2041SP ,or on a sheet of paper; you don't need to send copies of contracts etc. but have them available if requested by the tax office.       Your ISA shares dividends  can be declared like any others at 2047 sec A, in your case the gross is the net to you, (don't forget to calculate the  17.7% tax credit if they are UK shares), and you will need 2042C to enter that credit at box TA .

[quote user="knee gel"]Thanks once again Parsnips and Norman, I have read through the linked document, plus re-read the '2047 Notice Pour Remplir La Declaration....a l'etranger etc and '2047-NK Notice Pour Vous Aider A Remplir Votre Declaration.........' and I am now totally brain fogged. The linked doc says: les montants imposables a la CSG doivent etre declares case 8TL pour etre soumis a la CRDS. Ces revenus sont declares par ailleurs au cadre VIII de la declaration no. 2047 (apologies for the lack of accents!) Unless I am misreading this totally, I have written on both forms under Section VIII '8TL and written the total of my pension' because there is no 8TL box printed on my 2047K or my 2042K form which I believe is a simplified version. I haven't filled in the amount in the 8TV, 8TW or 8TX as I haven't managed to find out which of theses boxes is applicable to me! As said I am now totally franglaised so I'm now probably on the wrong wavelength and talking a load of ****. Think it must be sun over the yardarm time!!![/quote] Hi,       If your revenues of the year 2010 were under the limits shown for exemption  on page 3 of your taxe d'habitation demand, or you paid less than 61€ income tax that year, then you should enter the pension at box  8TX on form 2047; if you exceeded these limits enter it at 8TV  ; forget about 8TL, it no longer exists.

[quote user="nectarine"]I have a friend who's having problems with a new swimming pool installation and the company are giving her the runaround about various issues. I shan't go into the detail but the nuts and bolts are, is there a Citizens' Advice Bureau or equivalent in France where she could get some independent advice on her rights? Going to see a solicitor would incur costs up front so is there some kind of free mediation/advice service as a first stop? All advice gratefully received. Thank you in advance.[/quote] Hi,       Google-" UFC Que Choisir" and / or  " CLCV"  ; both involve a small joining fee..     As a first free step you can also ask at the mairie about the "Mediateur Commercial"

[quote user="knee gel"]Thanks Lou and Parsnips, Visitors are descending this weekend and I wanted the forms done and dusted so I hand delivered the forms to the tax office yesterday without the 2042 CK forms! Yes, I am early retired and paying into the health system - no S forms yet for a while. I filled out the 2047K and the 2042K and under section 8 on both forms I have added 8TL and the pension amount which is what I've been doing each year. Hopefully this amounts to the same thing as filling in the 2042CK and they can cross reference the two forms or have I misunderstood what you are saying? Thanks, Chris[/quote] Hi,       I think for you the 2042C is a red herring -other people who don't need them seem to have been sent them. However , you have not completed the 2047 correctly.  Your pension should now be entered at sec VIII boxes 8TQ to 8TX (probably 8TW) but look here: web1.droitissimo.com/sites/www.droitissimo.com/files/formulaires/Cerfa_50148-16_2041GG_Notice_Revenus_source_étrangere_revenus_outre-mer.pdf  (page 4) ( you may have to drag this link to your search box.) - to find out why this has changed and where you should declare.

[quote user="knee gel"]Hi all, I have received via the post the usual tax forms to fill in but this year I have received two other forms ie 2042 CK. Not sure why I've been sent them. I don't run a business of any kind paid or unpaid which is what I think the forms are referring to. Can someone enlighten me please as to what they are for. Thanks in advance, Chris[/quote]  Hi,     If you declare foreign dividends on 2047 Sec A, you need 2042C just to enter the 17.7% deduction which is given against your tax bill;  this goes in box TA on 2042C.    If they would put it on 2042K they would save a lot of trees!

[quote user="Anne"]Thank you all for your responses, it's really appreciated. Unfortunately we are unable to use the 'micro-foncier' as we are above 15 000E. If I have understood correctly from your comments and the reference to the notes on page 3 of form 2047, I should continue to declare through the table VI and box 8TK even though the revenue has been declared but not actually taxed in the UK.[/quote] Hi,       That is correct; UK tax has nothing to do with it ; it is declared here to help calculate your french tax rate and is then exempted from french tax by a credit equal to the french tax which would otherwise be due on it.

[quote user="Jazzer"]Personally, I do not think it relevant, whether it is an ex-serviceman or a dustman. What is relevant is the fact that some of us who paid tax all our lives( I started work at 16 retired at 65 and carried on paying taxes from my pension) and I have also been paying taxes here fro the last 15 years. Surely I should have the right to vote somewhere? I know the Italians have an MP to represent them in the UK and I think the French may also have one.[/quote] Hi,  Being able to vote for the people who tax you is a fundamental right, for which the Americans fought the War of Independence .  So logically we should have full voting rights in France , and for those of us who also pay tax in the UK , there as well. 

[quote user="NormanH"]Not only wrong then, but pig-headed and unwilling to admit their mistakes. I wonder how many of their "experts" live in France, have government pensions and make tax declarations to the French authorities? None I suspect if that is the advice they give. [/quote] Hi,  That response is typical ;  I gave up trying to put the "Correxion" right a long time ago, having been met with that  sort of patronising put down.  You notice they give no references to back up their position,appealing only to the godlike universal knowledge of their so -called "experts" .   

[quote user="NormanH"]This was answered by parsnips a few days ago in another thread http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/2904188/ShowPost.aspx ' P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } That guide (the Forum sticky on tax forms), although updated in 2011, is not correct for UK rental income, as can be verified by looking at the notice to this years 2047 which has , at last, been updated. On page 3 sec B 1) b - it clearly states that the Royaume-Uni  is one of the states whose "revenus immobiliers"-rents- are exonerated by a credit equal to the french tax; in other words exactly as the guide  describes for  government pensions ; 2047 VI and 2042 8TK. [/quote] Hi,       I should expand on the above a little; Although the rents should not be taxed in France , the way you declare them before the credit is calculated can have a small effect on your tax rate for other income.       For unfurnished lets under 15 000€ p.a. you can opt for the "micro-foncier" regime by ,in addition to the above,entering the gross rent on 2042 4BE and get a 30% set allowance. (put a note -"voir 8TK").   If you want to claim real expenses you take them off at 2047 VI "charges" and carry forward the rent net of expenses to 8TK.        If your let is furnished you can declare under micro-BIC on 2042C at 5ND "locations meublées" and get a 50% allowance.        By declaring in the way that most reduces the "theoretical" taxable sum , you reduce the "revenu fiscal de reference " which may save your other revenues from being taxed at a slightly higher average rate.  

[quote user="French Newbie"]Thanks everyone. Looks like I am going to have to consider alternatives to get step mum back to the UK and me to France. [/quote] Hi,        You should find a good english-fluent notaire (www.notaires.fr)-look under annuaire for your area ; and discuss your options (by email or phone if it's difficult to come over.   The procedure for forcing the sale is a common and routine one and is your best course of action. You shouldn't have to go to court or anything like that.

[quote user="gpnoel"]Hi Parsnips I thought (could be wrong!) that the appropriate percentage of Rentes Viageres attracted 13.5% Social Contributions and the 15.5% rate only applied to "pure" investment income ie interest, dividends, insurance policy profits etc? gpnoel[/quote] Hi,      As far as I know it is the full lot as these pensions are regarded as investment income .   The full CSG has recently increased from 13.5% to 15.5%.

[quote user="minnie"]Parsnips - thanks for your contribution but the Connexion 2013 guide states specifically that civil servants pensions should not be included in 1AS and 1BS. Are they wrong?[/quote] Hi,       Yes, not for the first time, they are wrong.

[quote user="sueyh"]Where on the tax form does one put private pension.  Sorry asking for a friend and have looked on FAQ and could not work out private pension bit, only state and government pension. Thanks in advance Suey [/quote] Hi,     If it is a purely private personal pension , purchased by you and with no connection with an employment , then strictly speaking it should be declared as a "Rente viagere à titre oneréreux" on page 1 2047, and then on 2042 boxes 1AW to1DW, depending on your age  when it was first paid .      Although these pensions get favourable treatment for income tax , the taxable part is liable to full 15.5% CSG .    Many people on modest incomes , who have accidentally entered these pensions as purchased annuities resulting from a company scheme (Page 1 2047" Pensions retraites,rente"s and 2042 1AS -which is where you should enter a company pension .." ) have ended up better off.

[quote user="minnie"]Hester - When I input my figures (Govt Pension) in Section VI of pink form it automatically gave me an 8TK on the blue form. That figure does not go into !AS or !BS as far as I'm aware. My only stumbling block now is to find E1 Renseignements Complimentaires on the online 2042 Blue form. Can anyone assist with finding this? Nearly there otherwise...[/quote] Hi,       You should add your gross government pension to any other pensions and enter the total in 1AS or 1BS, as well as government pension only at 8TK.

[quote user="Mac"][quote user="NormanH"]Social charges are payable if you are covered by the French for health assurance, but not if you are under an S1 form as a person in receipt of an OAP fom the UK would normally be.[/quote] So are you liable for social charges if you are in receipt of a private pension,not covered by an S1(too young) and paying a private health insurance(not been in France long enough to be eligable to cover)? There seem to be so many permutations-as in any tax system. And do you have to indicate on your form anywhere if you have private health cover and don't rely on France/UK paying your costs?[/quote] Hi,      You could write in on form 2047 sec VIII  and alongside box 1AS on 2042 -"titulaire d'assurance maladie privée complete, exempt de CSG et CRDS sur revenus de remplacement"-and enclose a copy of your insurance certificate.   You may well have to argue this with the tax office.

[quote user="AnOther"]Not knocking the guide you linked to Norman but it is 5 years old now and in places not necessarily reflective of the current forms. [/quote] Hi,      That guide , although updated in 2011, is not correct for UK rental income, as can be verified by looking at the notice to this years 2047 which has , at last, been updated. On page 3 sec B 1) b - it clearly states that the Royaume-Uni  is one of the states whose "revenus immobiliers"-rents- are exonerated by a credit equal to the french tax; in other words exactly as the guide  describes for  government pensions ; 2047 VI and 2042 8TK.

[quote user="sue"]Hi there wondering if anyone can help. My parent moved to France permanently last year after they both retired. They are living with us. Do I know put them on my tax return form when i complete it or do they do their own. Also on another note when do you receive "declaration preremple" for 2012. I am under the auto entrepaneau scheme (god help me). On my last return i filled in the printable forms. The form i got back from them with all the figures etc doesnt have a teledeclarant number, it just says "see your statement" so i cant do it on line. Thanks in advance[/quote] Hi,      You can claim on your declaration for any financial support you give your parents if they are without resources. Otherwise they will need to do their own (joint) declaration.    For a reduction of  your tax d'habitation, they must be ;1. over 70 or infirm                                                                                     2. living with you                                                                                      3. have a joint french  income (revenu fiscal de référence) for the previous year less than 15684€ (2013)     Details here; www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/popup?espId=1&typePage=cpr02&docOid=documentstandard_1544&temNvlPopUp=true Regarding your avis you do NOT sign and return it , you only use it when claiming benefits , or applying for a tax-free livret épargne populaire  at your bank.

[quote user="NormanH"]It's a good 'belt and braces' idea to go and see the tax people, but don't forget that the OP has only "just our private and state pensions plus a straightforward savings account" On the other hand it is true that things change frequently. The way of declaring English sourced pension income for example changed last year. [/quote] Hi,       Before consulting your local tax office , you should ask some of your english neighbours /friends in the area for their impressions.  I would definitely advise against taking any advice from the Jonzac office which in my wide experience of assisting their victims is staffed ;at least partly, by complete numpties.

[quote user="Grecian"]Has anybody experienced the disappearing virement tab with their online CA account.? Up until yesterday the tab was on the left-hand side of the screen, once clicked upon another window opened and I was able to transfer money between my liveret A and current account. Now the tab has completely disappeared, I have clicked on every button I can find on my account, but alas I cannot find the virement tab anywhere. The only thing that seems to have changed with my account is the fact I have not signed up for CA's online statements, I am not sure if this has any relevance to the situation. If anybody has found where they have hidden the tab I would be most grateful to know. [/quote] Hi,        On the CA charente-maritime deux-sevres site home page there is a notice saying that the site is being updated and no operations can be done (apart from checking your balances) till 19/03/2013

[quote user="rowland"]Sorry to bring this up again but have just received this month's copy of French Property News and read the article relating to french wills. It states  'When a client wishes to gift a French house in his will he has the option to either put a clause in his English will or write a French will structured as stated by the French Civil Code'. This is apparently covered in Article 1 of the Hague Convention of 5th October 1961. According to the article, the Article stipulates that a testamentary disposition (gift within a will) shall be valid if it complies with the internal law of one of the following: a) the place where the testator made it b) the state of which the testator was a national either at the time when he made the deposition or at the time of death. c)the place in which the testator had his domicile either at the time when he made the disposition or at the time of death. d) the place in which the testator had his habitual residence either at the time when he made the disposition or at the time of his death e)so far as immovable properties are concerned of the place where they are situated. It would therefore seem that as long as your french property is mentioned in your english will then that would be okay. It does not solve the problem of inheritance tax and it does not seem right that one is penalised for not having any children or blood relatives.  C'est la vie! [/quote] Hi,        A will may be valid in France , in the sense that french law recognises it as a legal document, but if any of it's provisions directly contravene french succession law (forced heirship for example) they will not be complied with.         And as you say , the important matter of unreasonably high french IHT is not resolved.          With the new EU rules coming into force in a couple of years time , the forced heirship can be overcome , but the tax problem will remain.

[quote user="steve"]hi all, we are in france now with the intention of living here full time in our own house and registering as an auto-entrepreneur.looking at forums im confused as to the law when it comes to inheritance and would be grateful for any help. my first concern is i have a grandmother who is terminally ill and near death ,in her will her assets will be split 3 ways of which i will get one third. there will be no uk tax paid as the amount is well below the threshold .will i be able to have my share or do the french authority's take tax or social charge from this,has any body had this case?. secondly , both me and my common-law wife of 25 years with whom we have 1 son of 19 ,need to make a will. this would consist of if either one of us dies all goes to the other,if we both go then all goes to our son, if we both went i see that under french law our son would pay no tax as our estate would be below the threshold but if myself or her went the other would be liable to pay a lot of tax at around 60% with only 1900€ allowance as we would be classed as strangers.is this true? again any info/links most welcome. thanks[/quote] Hi,     I've answered this elsewhere.

[quote user="rowland"]Thanks to everyone for helpful comments. I think I have read somewhere (but can't for the life of me remember where!) that any bequests to registered charities are not subject to French Inheritance Tax - have I made that up? If we leave things to non-relatives then after paying up to 60% in tax plus notaire's fees there would be hardly anything left!   [/quote] Hi,      Bequests to charities recognised in France and to certain foreign charities are tax-free.   Best to contact your chosen charities and get them to confirm their french tax-free status.

[quote user="rowland"]Parsnips - thanks for your reply. We have english wills set up to cover the situation should we die at the same time but I take it from your comments that those wills would not be considered in France.  My closest blood relative is my brother and OH has only cousins so your reply suggests that they would inherit the french properties. It is sounding more complicated by the minute as we have specified in our english wills that all properties be sold and the proceeds divided between several beneficiaries. I think we will have to take advice and make a french will to avoid complications - not that we would be around to sort it all out!!! [/quote] Hi,        You can , of course , make a french will with exactly the same provisions as your english will , and it will be honoured in france - but the taxes charged on the distantly or unrelated beneficiaries of the french property would be very high (60% on a non-relative).