LanguedocGal

which had just been decimated by the CRS tanks. They had special instructions to neutralise and exterminate the tractor, as top level intelligence suggested that it belonged to the village ‘Racaille’…

he intended to honour his word. As he ambled towards the local bistro, he was aghast to see 10 tanks making their way menacingly towards him. Fifty members of the CRS jumped out of the tanks. They were wielding blue-bells, chrysanthemums, daffodils, geraniums, roses and a few trees. So the rumours were true and these gentle creatures had indeed raided the local flower market….

O woe! O woeful, woeful, woeful day!                    Most lamentable day, most woeful day, That ever, ever, I did yet behold! O day! O day! O day! O hateful day! Never was seen so black a day as this: O woeful day, O woeful day!  ....

[quote user="cooperlola"] LDG is this mindset exclusive to the French?  I think not.  It's the reason I would not want to be a politician for all the tea in China, or anywhere else for that matter.  Everybody wants perfect public services, just so long as they pay less for them.  Better services, lower taxes.  Globalism with protectionism in place to defend their own little bit of the economy.  They want the cheaper products in the supermarkets yet weep crocodile tears at the conditions under which those in third world countries work to produce them.  Not a problem I would be able to solve, could you? [/quote] Cooperlola, as always the voice of reason.[:)]  I've said before that I would not last a day in French politics. All those suits would do my head in. No, I do not think this (protective) mindset is exclusive to the French but what seems very much exclusive to them is this intellectual, almost holier than thou, self-righteous belief that their system is so much better than everyone else’s (especially the 'anglo-saxon' economies) whilst fully profiting from the advantages (and subsidies) of the other systems that they – and those who have bought into their propaganda – constantly trash.  I’d hate to think what would happen to my and many regions of France if the PAC subsidies stopped tomorrow. Many people here will have to eat dust to maintain their ‘traditional’ way of life so loved by retired immigrants and tourists. Traditions can be retained by adapting to the changing world. If one adapts voluntarily, there is a greater chance of saving one’s heritage and traditions than if forced to do so by economic necessity. In the 80s, the UK had to adapt or die, hence the brutality of it all.  I don’t think there is a perfect economic system but I think there are bits of good in many models (including the French. UK, US, German, Swedes etc etc). However, they all need to be funded somehow. The French and their ‘ideological allies’ have a supercilious way of demonising other economic models (I hear it all the time) and that I do think is extremely daft, especially in view of the cr*p state of theirs. 8.4% unemployment?  Mon oeil! And it’s wearing a rose –tinted spec.  

[quote user="Pangur"]It's hardly a high-faluting concept, and it doesn't mean you want to exist in some kind of Marxist utopia and have to give up your worldly goods (or pretend to).  The statement is about whether or not you believe that having no regulation on the market is the best way forward or not.   I know, and my point was that the French are hypocritical with regards their declarations on 'systems and models' and their real lives. Also, which country has no regulations of its market? There is a balance that can be had in society.  It doesn't have to be totally one or the other.  I, like many of the 25-50 year old French I have met, believe in a strong state.   I don't want to live in a country  that believes only in the free market, and that has faith that the market will regulate everything.  I want a WORLD where every hungry person is fed, free healthcare is available to all, and homes for everyone etc etc. No joke and no irony intended, but now what? Easy to make the statements and have the desires but how do we all actually live our lives? You couldn't pay me to live in the US for example - and yes, I have worked there.  I have no problem paying taxes, Good! And the French State will take what you have to offer and more to cover the proportion of the ‘’natives’’ doing their best to avoid paying.  or living in a high tax country with good public services and I strongly believe that if government does not keep a handle on business, it is to the detriment of society.  An alternative model to free market capitalism is what is currently happening in many parts of Europe - people who don't believe the free market is the best way don't necessarily mean that they don't want to have good jobs, nice homes, yearly holidays etc etc.  It just means that they don't want big business and the dollar to be the only measurement of success or to leave regulation up to big business.  In which country is the dollar and big business the ONLY  measurement of success? Obviously there are a lot of problems in France that need to be addressed, and there is such a thing as over-regulation but the French I know don't want the same economic system as they have in the UK or the US.  This is one of their favourite soundbites (a popular one) without actually coming forward with solutions to maintain and fund this alternative (have you been following the elections?). Perhaps the UK, US and others will follow if they come up with a financially sustainable one instead of just pontificating and pointing fingers at what’s awful elsewhere. Sure, they'll go to London and get the money and experience but stay in the UK to raise families?  All the young London French I know fled the UK as soon as the first bébé arrived.   I grew up in London too so I know that this does not even come close to the whole picture. Unless, of course, over the last couple of years institutions such as the Lycee Francais now have 100% non-French in-take.  Do you know how difficult it is to get a place in a Creche in many parts of this country? Perhaps some of your friends ran back to be closer to their families too. This is not uncommon and in their place, I may have done the same. To get back on track: there are no English in our hamlet - is this a record? I don’t live in a hamlet. I’d go stark raving bonkers surrounded by all that tranquillity and quaintness – whether there are too many Anglais or not[:)] [/quote] Edit: tried to reduce the font size, but no luck

[quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="Iceni"] I used to teach statistics and the only one I can find that is universally accepted is that France has the highest work output and works the least hours for any EEC country and US. [/quote] But again, that's not in a vacuum.  There are fewer people in work in France than in some other countries, and those few have to get a whole lot done in 35 hours, so productivity looks good.  The price you pay for that is lower wages and higher unemployment. [/quote] Iceni, if you used to teach statistics, then you should also wonder at the origins and collation of these figures. An interesting theory on the high French productivity level (I've never bought into that based on my experience).  This came from a French chap who wrote it on a Liberation (I think) site a few months ago. The following is my wording French companies invest heavily in machinery in order to minimise the number of employees (high charges), therefore, as national output figures do not reflect the proportion of machinery, the French are not really more productive than anyone else, simply highly mechanised in many sectors.  I have no idea how true the above is, but it's an interesting theory and I don't buy those productivity figures - a bit like their unemployment figures.

The Modern French Economic Model's prayer Give us all the advantages of globalisation but our govt has to protect us from all its evils. Give us the advantages of capitalism but our govt must protect us from its tribulations (other countries can have those). We support the advantages of a planned economy as long as our multinationals make enough to sustain us. We want an alternative model to capitalism but will do what’s necessary to accumulate wealth and avoid paying as much taxation as possible towards the state. Sorry Pangur, but I think there is a lot of hypocrisy in much of France’s often quoted social economic values/model. No doubt that even a few French people I know would also have been part of that 36% if questioned, however, see how they live their lives and strive to build a future for themselves; there is no difference from those in other countries. I’m talking about those aged 25-50.  Really no difference at all.  In fact, the only factors that make some appear more ‘laid-back’ is the crushing lack of opportunities and freedom in France, born out by the fact that so many do extremely well in ‘anglo-saxon’ countries. I have no doubt that there are a few true socialists out there who believe in this philosophy and would be willing to live by their word, but for the majority, it’s all talk born out of a profound fear of the worst aspects of capitalism. We all have these fears without justifying them by hiding behind some hifaluting ideologies to prove an intellectual/moral high ground. An alternative to the the worst elements of capitalism would be great, however, France is just as capitalist as the rest of them but perhaps just a little more hypocrital than some.

I agree with Val-2 and will stick my neck out even further on this issue as it’s really close to my heart on a number of levels. I definitely don’t want to make anyone feel guilty. Parents have options but the children may not have any if they are  thrown into the French education system too late. I tend to wonder at parents who often go on about ‘quality of life’ as the reason for the upheaval at the various stages of their children’s lives. I accept that when the children are very young but only to pre-teen. After that, I think the parents are usually focusing on their own quality of life and transferring that need/desire onto their children; thus making it more ‘acceptable’. My perceptions of the risk factors according to age when taking children into a new language and education system. I’ve based this on my family’s experience as well as those of a lot of friends and people I have come across, who had to go through this. 0- 5        No risk. Child should adapt perfectly and only problem will be maintaining the original ‘mother tongue’. 6-9            low to lowish risk. Most children will adapt relatively easily. The more timid may struggle for a while. 10-11     Low to medium risk depending on the child’s abilities and more importantly – adaptability. Timid children are more likely to be the medium risk level element. 12-14            Medium to high risk. Child’s ability to adapt ‘socially’ is extremely important for the progress of this group. 15-16     Too high a risk to be contemplated. Why would you? What is the point?  S/he is virtually an adult. How do you expect them to acquire a foreign language (written and spoken) within a couple of  years, to the standard of the locals, when it has taken 15/16 years to achieve the same in his/her own language? Nothing is impossible but put yourself in their shoes and imagine having had to do the same thing at their age.  Any other posters who moved from one language to another at a young age? How did you adapt? I know it’s a difficult choice for parents but I only see things from the child’s point of view on this issue.

I usually read posts on this topic with interest, as I was one of those children who had to adapt to another language and education system. I have never contributed, as I was in the child’s position and not the parents’, which is usually the subject here.   However, I’ve decided to add my 2 pennies worth this time because I don’t like people feeling guilty unless they are murderers, paedophiles, rapists, Daily Mail readers (protective shield up[:)]) and such like. An idea  Do you have family you can leave your 16 year old with; enabling him to complete his education in the UK? He can join you every holiday and 2 academic years go by very quickly. If he continues to Uni, he would be away from home anyway so that hardly matters whether he is in France or the UK. If you are one of those mothers who do not let their kids out of their sight without feeling like the world’s worst mother, then my idea will be of no use but just a thought.  Based on my own experience, I would not recommend it after the age of 10/11. I know there are success stories for children who move abroad in their teens  but it’s just so much harder for them and based on people I know, I always wonder if most really ever achieve their full academic potential.   Edit: move abroad obviously refers to 'a different language to be learnt from scratch or basic level'

P-D de R, I can see that you are in the law but am amazed you pooh pooh adverse comments about the French legal system.The fact that the reports of complaints do not exist (or perhaps figures not as high as UK or you simply haven’t seen them) may simply imply that people have little faith in such a procedure.  If I had had any confidence in such a process, I would have made a complaint about a completely incompetent Huissier de Justice whose shabby work cost me dear in 2005.  Also had a friend of mine had faith in a complaints procedure, she would have gone against a number of lawyers who refused to represent her because they did not want to come up against the judge who had taken a pathetic case against her (neighbour issue). She initially started off by having to get a lawyer from Paris but through ‘contacts’ found a ‘left-wing’ lawyer in her town who hated the judge in question. I mentioned left-wing because the French people who advised her (correctly) said that was a very important factor. She listened to them, engaged him and won the case. The system here is extremely intimidating because the old boy’s network smacks you in the face if you need to go against it. Neither of us would have hesitated to go down the formal complaints route had we been in the UK. The fact that we didn’t, doesn’t mean they were competent or that we were satisfied. After almost 4 years, my purchase papers still state (despite numerous reminders) that the female owner I bought from is a 'monsieur', her husband a 'madame' and me a 'monsieur'.  Mais Franchement! How difficult is that to put right?! I spent some time in the USSR in the early 80s and remember hearing that there were no alcoholics or rapes in the country. Well, there weren’t any figures to contradict them, so all was honky dory.[:@]

[quote user="KathyC"] I'm always surprised at how many people move to France for the" better quality of life " and  slower lifestyle and then complain when shops etc. are not open all hours God sends. Perhaps it's only our own quality of life that concerns us and everybody else has to be prepared to work these hours for our convenience? [/quote] [8-)][8-)][8-)] How do you equate the choice to trade on Sundays with good/bad quality of life? What about the high unemployment (they certainly have a slow pace of life) and low wages generally in France? Surely these have more of an impact on the French quality of life? Who exactly are campaigning for these supermarkets to close/stay open on Sundays?  I complain about the lack of choice that exists in these types of situations in France: laws that are often not clear-cut and can be manipulated in order to hinder business and employment. Moving to France for a slower pace of life? It suits a few immigrants, so let’s keep the French economy at that level and *od the section of the French population themselves who seem to enjoy having this option. Not sure that this issue is about a few British immigrants moving to France for a slower pace of life. In any case, many of these are retired or semi retired so, I assume, can make their lives as slow or fast as they wish irrespective of whether shops are open Sundays / 24/7 or not for the convenience of the French population. http://www.lefigaro.fr/economie/20070404.WWW000000285_les_magasins_de_plan_de_campagne_nouvriront_plus_le_dimanche.html

Mr L, I have absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with me – I’m always surprised when anyone agrees with me, as it’s such a rare occurrence. However, I stand by what I said in that it’s a little tiresome always hearing about how wonderful things used to be when most of the time, this was far from the truth and I’m not just talking about people on forums. What you are talking about above refers to inconsiderate employers but in retail, as in all fields, there are good and bad employers (JL and M&S being classical examples of relatively good retail employers).    In France, the constant need for govt to ‘control’ things is frankly bringing the country to it’s economic knees and Sunday opening issues is just another example of how the unions who represent a tiny percentage of the French workforce terrifies the weak-willed and cowardly govt into submission nearly every time. As I’m not a Rockefeller heiress (at least not to my knowledge), I assume I’m a worker and have done a variety of jobs starting from work experience at 16 and yes  - in retail too.  Re 1907; if it makes you happier then, I’ll say 1987. In any case, it was a simple reference to indicate living in our times instead of in the past, which I’m never convinced was as glorious as so many like to claim - I have a memory too. Sorry if I upset you but you should ask yourself – as you now live in France -  how many French people you know actually go to church on Sunday’s (relevant here).  Others have said and I know for a fact myself that Sunday shopping is extremely popular among the French. No one is forcing them to shop on Sundays and what if they went shopping as a family? Is there a 'special' way to spend time together as a family that has to be applied universally? What about the jobs lost by these incredible restrictive practices in France? What about the employee rights there? The French economy is also important to the quality of the ‘family life’ that the population can aspire to in the future.   If you want to talk about workers’ rights, that’s another issue but I don’t need a govt to tell me when I can shop or whether I can work on a Sunday or not. I think I’m capable of making that decision by myself like a grown up person. Why is shopping at 2 am at a London Tesco dangerous?  Don’t know about Waitrose, as I rarely shopped there but what is the relevance?  When I said that the workers 'would' have been there anyway, I meant that.  These supermarkets are rarely ever ‘closed’ as there are always people behind the scenes filling shelves, bringing in deliveries etc. It’s called flexi-time and shift work. Mr L, France needs to be shaken out of it’s overwhelming state control and sorry if it sounds like lecturing but this level of control stifles creativity and choice for workers too – that’s my point which you can disagree with of course.   Edit: Tag, I saw your post after. Glad there is one person I didn't upset.  Tresco too - wow! this is my lucky day.

[quote user="Tag"]Rumzigal touches the heart of the matter I think. Who are the politicians to decide these things for people? If people wanna say cycle or whatever or go to football, great, but if they wanna shop, then let them too.[/quote] hear! hear! This is the biggest nanny state Ever... I like Sunday and 24 hour openings and I speak as someone who absolutely HATES shopping - unless it's in a Brocante... Here,  I do supermarket shopping between 12-14 to avoid the crowds. No one is forced to shop on Sundays and if people want to keep it a family day, then let them. Whether shops open or not should not make a blinding difference. Manage your family, I say, and let the rest of us shop when we want. Yes, I'm the person who used to shop at 2am in my local Tesco's in London - didn't do anyone any harm - the workers were mainly filling shelves and would have been there in any case. The difference being that the shop was open. The workers rights on this 'sacred' day argument is one I don't buy into. In my first managerial job yonks ago, it was in my contract that I could not take more than 2 weeks holiday at one time though I was entitled to 5 weeks. I signed knowing the terms and conditions. We live in 2007 and for those who prefer 1907, I suggest you get your tools and kits out and start building HG Wells little number so you can head back[6].

I think smoking is definitely less than it was in the past but in my area, I say that they can do much much better. Friends here who smoke insist the laws won't work in bars, cafes, clubs and similar 'having fun' places. I sincerely hope they are wrong but time will tell if the govt has enough balls (it would be a first) to apply the law properly in these 'sensitive areas' of resistance. 

Polly, I live in the Herault and like it very much - apart from what I hate. It may be useful to post a list of 10-15 things you are looking for and then we Heraultais people here can tell you whether we think the area fits those criteria. It's probably a good idea to indicate roughly how old you are - not trying to pry but this is quite important. If you are in the need to earn a wage range, I'd not be as positive in my replies - reality is reality.... The advice you've been given re renting here is pretty much essential. Really do bear the heat in mind too, as it can be overwhelming for many. I would also suggest you do look at the following sites if you haven't already done so. http://www.montpellier.fr/   Capital http://www.nimes.fr/    http://www.ville-beziers.fr/  2nd city http://www.decouvrir-l-herault.com/ http://www.the-languedoc-page.com/     in English http://www.languedocliving.com/    In English Edited: Sorry Polly, have no idea why I included Nimes in Herault. I'm having one of those half brain days (frequent occurrence). I'll leave the link anyway but Nimes is in the Gard not Herault. In distance however, I think it's closer to Montpellier than Beziers, the dept's second city. The other towns/larger villages to check out are : Sete, Agde, Pezenas, Marseillan, Meze

How about the chap sentenced a few weeks ago for - yes - ripping out his wife's eyes.... Re violent crime, I get the impression that our local press seem to report a lot of crime within families too. The usual thing is a man who has taken his gun, killed his wife and kids and then shot himself. Marym2, it's all horrible but if you can find me a country where these horrid things don't happen, I'll join you there. I don't live in one of those countries; I live in France. When you put links as you did above, you give the impression that you think none of that happens here. Do you read your local regional papers much?[8-)]

Excellent lyrics! I never understand rap in English either, and tend to need to read the lyrics so no different in French then[:)] http://www.rap2france.com/ma-france-a-moi.php Edit: RG, you just beat me to it!

[quote user="Patf"]I've done a quick census from our address book and find we have met at least 36 british families here since we arrived. Average length of time in France is 8 years. There are 11 retired couples. The others all have work of some sort : 9 connected with building, 2 in agriculture,3 selling,3 teaching, 3 property maintenance and gites and various others including a doctor an immo and one working for Airbus and one motor repairs. Three have left, one due to death of partner, one moved to Spain for the hotter weather and one I think for financial reasons. I know of two families who are struggling financially as the children reach adolescence, but do want to stay. So this is nothing like two thirds leaving. The Gers is certainly not  near the top of the pile for employment opportunities, but possibly it is one of the cheaper departments to live in as there's nowt to do - everyone stays at home! Pat.[/quote] Patf, thanks for that. I can see that, on the whole, the jobs are very much the ‘usual suspects’ and it’s great that the families you know have made it work financially and spiritually (no boredom). One of the friends who left in 2006 turned his hand to most of the jobs you mention but after a while, the novelty wore off and he found it tedious doing unfulfilling badly paid ‘petits boulots’ (which they were). Working in construction if you are a professional in the field is one thing but if not, it can lose its interest quickly. Yes, some of it was illegal but for all those who want to get righteous, not because he wanted it that way.  He had little choice and that’s what a lot of the French he worked with did. What was amusing too was the fact that he accepted jobs such as cleaning a hotel over a weekend that he would NEVER have contemplated in the UK.  Considering his professional background and qualifications, it was incredible how flexible he became in an attempt to make his French dream last. Luckily, he also had the pragmatism and intelligence to know when to wake up to the reality. I hope I have the same discernment should the need arise. I was actually hoping you would say the families you know in Gers worked in a wider range of fields but would have been surprised had you said so. The only surprise was the Doctor because I also know someone who works for an Airbus subcontractor (though not for much longer by the sounds of things). I know a few highly qualified Parisians in Montpellier and if they had to survive on the jobs you mentioned, they would have returned to Paris, so it’s not really a Brit issue. The lack of jobs in the regions (according to training and qualifications) concerns everyone in France. Very glad that, in general, your lot are finding the rural France experience rewarding emotionally and financially.  

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="LanguedocGal"] [quote user="oglefakes"] At the end of the day, most of us like a whinge now and then. [/quote] True, but on this forum, you are ONLY allowed to whinge about UK institutions and only negative people whinge about perfect haloed French institutions. [/quote] So, you haven't read the recent thread about customer service in France and you've never read the Finance section to find out what we incomers think of French banks.  [:D] [/quote] Benjamin, I missed those threads. If I came across any Brit immigrant who thinks the French Banking System and level of customer service in general are haloed turf, I’d have to do my civic duty as a French resident and get the lads and lasses who issue straitjackets to pay them a visit. [6] However, point taken.[:D]

Oprah Winfrey Probably one of the most influential people in the US today. She has worked ruddy hard, made tons of dosh and donates heaps to excellent causes. Go Girl!![:D]

[quote user="oglefakes"] At the end of the day, most of us like a whinge now and then. [/quote] True, but on this forum, you are ONLY allowed to whinge about UK institutions and only negative people whinge about perfect haloed French institutions. I’ll whinge about the UK if I move back or about Spain if I move there. In the meantime, re my country of residence; did anyone see that documentary a few days ago featuring those poor retired women having to work (some illegally) to supplement their meagre pensions?  It seems this is more and more common and it’s truly disgusting that an ever increasing number are obliged to, just to make ends meet. Please don’t take my whinging away, as it’s probably the only native characteristic I’ve developed to date[;-)]

[quote user="oglefakes"] At the end of the day, most of us like a whinge now and then. [/quote] True, but on this forum, you are ONLY allowed to whinge about UK institutions and only negative people whinge about perfect haloed French institutions. I’ll whinge about the UK if I move back or about Spain if I move there. In the meantime, re my country of residence; did anyone see that documentary a few days ago featuring those poor retired women having to work (some illegally) to supplement their meagre pensions?  It seems this is more and more common and it’s truly disgusting that an ever increasing number are obliged to, just to make ends meet. Please don’t take my whinging away, as it’s probably the only native characteristic I’ve developed to date[;-)]   Edit: Mods: Don't know why this has posted twice. Could one be deleted please as I can't seem to do it. Merci!

[quote user="Patf"]I've said before that out of at least 30 british families we have met here in the last 5 years not one has gone back. Maybe it's something to do with the Gers.  Pat.[/quote] Patf, I don’t think the figures are all that surprising when you bear the economic situation of the country in mind as well as the fact that over the last few years, a considerable number of the natives themselves have moved to the UK because of work. In the 90s, I knew many French people in London who did not return to France -though they wanted to - simply because they knew they couldn't get decent jobs in their regions. They must laugh at the Brits who think they can. Unless your region is incredibly dynamic with good employment opportunities, the people I know would still have left.  They all loved their region. I am quite interested in a rough idea of the nature of the ‘families’ to which you refer, e.g. age groups and in particular how many are in their late 30s to late 40s. Do you know how they make a living?  With the employment situation in France, unless they are ‘expat-residents’, (job brought them over here) then how do they make a living? The people I know that left are the really dynamic types who, in reality, simply needed a couple of years career break from stressful jobs in the UK. However, needing a break and entering into enforced semi-retirement due to the bad French economy are completely different things. Also, as has been said, people sometimes remain because they have no choice.  My friend who left this year, tried to get back to the UK for over a year. If those you know are still in France, on the surface, that could be a success story. However, if they are like the returnees I know, unless you are a close friend, you would never have guessed they had been trying to return.  People can rarely move back quickly after making the decision to do so –those with children in schools and those needing to sell first, must have a tough time deciding.  I’m not saying that the people you know are in the same situation; merely that it’s at times difficult to know what is truly going on. If most of those 30 fall into the retired/semi retired and or well-off category (irrespective of age), then the rate of success is self-explanatory. If not, perhaps they should share the ‘Gers’ Brit success story. It could be very useful to others, especially the economically active; as I would guess that this could be the group with a high number of returnees.  On a personal level, I was fully aware that moving to France when I did was potential economic suicide (this is where not moving to fantasy France is important), and so was probably a little better prepared than many, nonetheless, the jury is still out on the economic suicide part[8-)] So, what is the Gers secret for the economically active?

I don’t know how accurate or not the 'official' figures are and I didn’t see the Channel 4 programme (Didn’t know Ch4 was available in France[8-)]). Personal experience; out of five 40sth Brits who moved to France between early 2003 and early 2006, three have already returned to the UK. I also think the ‘stage of life’ is a fairly important factor but that’s another thread.  

[quote user="catalpa"][quote user="hastobe"]and I have a big pan of mushy peas simmering on the hob...mmmmmm.  If heaven is half as good as this..... [/quote] ... then I want to go south. [:-))] [/quote] Come south Catalpa and we will get you all the Steak Frites you want [:-))]