Existential2

Folks I think I've decided to play it safe and have 2 alarms for our 11m x 5m pool - and complement the Aquasensor we have with an Aquapremium alarm. Can anyone recommend a good (preferably on-line and French) supplier of Aquapremium ? Also, if anyone has any bad experiences of particular suppliers, could you also let me know (by message if need be) so I can avoid them ?? Many thanks Jean-Paul

Folks Can anyone help with either of the following please ?? 1. Does anyone have access to an English language version of the Aquasensor installation instructions, or can anyone suggest where on the net I may be able to find a copy ? Ive got the French instructions which I guess (?) with which I could get by with a little help from my friends (i.e. my trusty dictionary) but obviously an English version would be easier (and probably more reliable !) 2. Secondly, is it still the case that for any pools of greater than 10m x 5m (in my case 11m x 5m) one still is required by AFNOR norms to have 2 alarms in order to ensure that the alarm sensor is no more than 7 metres from all points in the pool ? According to my rusty geometry, a mid point on one side of my pool is 7.4 metres from the far corners. Im totally confused (not for the first time on this subject !!!) : months ago I was told by the Aquasensor manufacturer that I would definitely require 2. the next month my pool company said they werent sure, but would check. When I asked them again they said they thought I would need 2, but were waiting for written confirmation before ordering me a 2nd alarm. I heard nothing more (comme dhabitude !) yesterday the pool company phone to say my (first) alarm was ready for collection. I asked about the position re 2nd alarm, the guy (different to the other guy) asked how big my pool was and he replied no you dont need a 2nd alarm today Ive collected the alarm. In the instructions it states that the alarm sensor should be mounted so that all points of the pool are within 7 metres. On the box it states that the alarm detects falls into pools of 10m x 5m maximum, and that for larger pools it is RECOMMENDED that complementary security measures or alarms should be installed on re checking my copy of the draft/projet AFNOR regles (I dont have copy of the final/revised regles) it clearly states that the alarm sensor MUST be within 7 metres of all points in the pool Even allowing for my grotty French, in my mind theres a difference between a recommendation and a (legal) requirement ! Obviously I dont want to have to order and buy a 2nd alarm if I dont need to, but since my only reason for buying the alarm in the first place was to ensure I remained within the law (I have a brand new 4,000 six foot high fence around the pool that will keep out any 5 / 10/ 20 year old in the real world but I knew wouldnt be compliant in AFNOR world !), I also dont want to have spent money on just one alarm and find Im still not legal Id rather buy the 2nd to ensure legality !! Any information would be gratefully received especially any info that can be referenced to an authoritative source !! But all help gratefully received !! Many thanks Jean-Paul

SaligoBay Interesting question you put ! One thought : a number of times recently, when being grilled by some gite guest/house hunter about why I left UK, it's not taken them long to tell us about how they hate "the way England's going" ... and it's become fairly obvious that one reason they want to move to rural France is to avoid having to see black people on the street. My guess (borne out by some experience) is that they are not alone, and that a number of Brit ex-pats in France have moved to rural France for (literally) reactionary reasons to get away from social progress (such as it is) in the UK. I just hope that our French neighbours don't tar us all with the same brush when they come across/against these racist Brits !! Ironically, our area of rural France is refreshingly cosmopolitan and accepting - as a number of our black guests have attested. So maybe the racist Brits will just have to move on to the Costas next ? Best wishes Jean-Paul

Folks Can anyone suggest a good ISP based in Spain (ideally covering the Canaries as well ...), that is "pay per use" (like Laposte.fr is here in France) rather than subscription based ? When collecting e-mails via laptop in Spain in the past I've had to use an international call to my UK ISP (Tiscali UK) - as Tiscali France's access number won't work outside France. Obviously I'd prefer to be able to dial into a Spanish ISP at local Spanish call rate. If the ISP also had an English version of their website that would be a bonus !! Even a French version would be better than tring to sign up with my holiday Spanish !! Many thanks Jean-Paul

Washy My guess is that the accessibility and standards of mental health care in France may be just as variable (between excellent and appalling) as in UK, but ... From my own experience when in need I just followed the signs for the psychiatric hospital in the nearest large'ish town, asked for help at the reception, who were very welcoming and directed me to the consultants' offices, where a secretary arranged for me to see a consultant - and apologised profusely that I had to wait an hour for him to return from his visits !! The service was from that point on simply excellent. But (having worked in NHS for many years) very interestingly different ... - no real notion of "medical records" as far as I could see (to this day they won't have my home address !!) - seemed quite medically oriented - no psycholigists I could see in evidence, and when in later stages of recovery we asked about counselling, the reply was "well, of course we can arrange this if there's something you don't feel able to talk to me about" - which wasn't quite the point - was very "needs led" - no fixed timescale for repeat appointments (after the acute phase had passed), was left up to us to decide when we needed to see him again - and were always able to get an appointment the next day ! And all free ... (apart from medication - which was dealt out surprisingly sparingly for France !!) But others will have had different experiences I'm sure. Best I can suggest is ask around (perhaps ask local medicins) for advice on helpful psychiatrists .. I'm sure there will be as many dreadful ones as there are brilliant ones such as we had the luck to meet !! Also another thought : the above relates to an acute mental health problem, if your friend has chronic problems, their needs/experiences of the French system may well prove to be different ... Best wishes to your friends !! Jean-Paul

Judy Thanks for this - I didn't realise that there was a "Kent International Airport" (to quote the EUjet website : www.eujet.com) It appears that they will be offering 3 routes to/from France : From Girona Flights Start 5 Sep 2004 Flights Operate every day except Saturday From Nice Flights Start 5 Sep 2004 Flights Operate on Sundays, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays From Toulouse Flights Start 18 Dec 2004 Flights Operate on Saturdays only Thanks again !! Best wishes Jean-Paul

Dear BSLIV I too watched the programme with interest ! 2 thoughts occured to me : 1. The programme did illustrate what seems to me to be a very prominent feature of French culture (in its widest sense - not just arts etc) : that is the way in which almost anything "French" (or Belgian in this case) is better than anything not "French". And if something non-French is popular (especially with young people) it's better to imitate it than admire it. (I say this with some respect to/of this aspect of French culture). 2. I was reminded of what happened with Arnold Swartzi ... (sorry Arnie - can't spell your name !) : the more you are accused of rape, the more popular you become ! Sad and depressing (to say the least) fact that does indeed seem to be trans-continental ! best wishes Jean-Paul

Folks Those who live near Lyons or Nice and miss the Duo service from Birmingham may be interested in the following news item from FT.com Unfortunately, no such good news for those of us who live near Bordeaux !! Still, plenty of other routes for us !! "British Airways CitiExpress has moved to fill some of the gaps left at Birmingham airport by the demise of Duo, the low-cost carrier. The BA franchise operator has started daily services to Lyons and Vienna and two round trips a week to Nice on Saturdays and Sundays. From next Monday the Lyons service will be increased to two flights a day." Best wishes Jean-Paul

Folks Some may be interested in the following FT.com article, which seems to me to neatly review the state of lo-cost flying. In summary : "Stag parties will still be able to drink their way around Europe. Villa owners will still reach their places in the sun. But the name on the side of the aircraft may change from week to week." http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1083180356828&p=1012571727085 (You may need to cut/past the link) Best wishes Jean-Paul

Folks sorry - I forgot to ask ... does anyone have access to the revised regs for pool alarms ? If so, does it change the maximum distance from detector to all parts of pool, or will those of us with 11x5m pools still need 2 alarms ?? Thanks ! Jean-Paul

Folks I've just received an e-mail from AFNOR stating that the revised regs have now been decided ... AND it includes a link to a page on their website that (for the first time ???) very helpfully sets out the current situation : http://planete.afnor.fr/v3/espace_information/normesreglementation/piscines_proprietaires.htm Although it doesn't state what the new regs are (presumably you still have to pay for these) it does include a link to manufacturers, and does summarise our responsibilities as owners ... INCLUDING (if my French is correct) that if anyone has already installed a security device that conforms with the earlier norms published December 2003, then they are still covered (well done Richard !!). But check my translation out for yourself - don't take my word for it !! Best wishes Jean-Paul

Folks For those searching for DIY pool fencing : Bricomarche are advertising the vertical bar type fencing at 70 for 1m length, 130 for 2m. Also gate with double security lock for 330. Zyke (www.zyke.fr) have several options in their new catalogue : - mesh type fencing ("sous reserve d'obtention des certificats de conformite") 27.50 per meter - a roll-up blue tarpaulin style cover ("conforme a la norme NF P90-308") for 30 per square meter. - a white or blue PVC slat looking automatic cover ("conforme a la norme NF P90-308") for various sizes of pool (4422 for 5m x 11m) - what looks like a bubble summer blanket that is secured around edges and is "sous reserve d'obtention des certificats de conformite" for 15 per sqare meter Add these to previous postings re Auchan and others !! Bon courage !! Jean-Paul

Folks For those searching for DIY pool fencing : Bricomarche are advertising the vertical bar type fencing at 70 for 1m length, 130 for 2m. Also gate with double security lock for 330. Zyke (www.zyke.fr) have several options in their new catalogue : - mesh type fencing ("sous reserve d'obtention des certificats de conformite") 27.50 per meter - a roll-up blue tarpaulin style cover ("conforme a la norme NF P90-308") for 30 per square meter. - a white or blue PVC slat looking automatic cover ("conforme a la norme NF P90-308") for various sizes of pool (4422 for 5m x 11m) - what looks like a bubble summer blanket that is secured around edges and is "sous reserve d'obtention des certificats de conformite" for 15 per sqare meter Add these to previous postings re Auchan and others !! Bon courage !! Jean-Paul

Dear Krill Alarm manufacturer's website (with links to help find suppliers) : http://www.aquasensor.com/english/gbindex.html Good luck !! Best wishes Jean-Paul

Dear Krill Alarm manufacturer's website (with links to help find suppliers) : http://www.aquasensor.com/english/gbindex.html Good luck !! Best wishes Jean-Paul

Massimo We've ordered a pool alarm (waiting to see if we need to order a second because of 11x5 sized pool) - but pool company have not received deliveries yet from manufacturer (was promised for last week in April). Also installing (non AFNOR) garden fence around the pool area, to keep out stray dogs, deter (if not keep out) wayward kiddies, and give everyone more privacy. Still waiting for delivery/installation date during May. So am just hoping that no under-5 drowns in the pool before the pool alarm gets delivered ! We don't accept children in the gite, so that reduces the chances a bit ! But if one does find way in and manages to drown, fingers crossed that non-availability of AFNOR approved alarms by the deadline will prove to be some defence ... no, didn't really think it would !! Would be interested to hear what others are doing ! Best wishes Jean-Paul

Massimo We've ordered a pool alarm (waiting to see if we need to order a second because of 11x5 sized pool) - but pool company have not received deliveries yet from manufacturer (was promised for last week in April). Also installing (non AFNOR) garden fence around the pool area, to keep out stray dogs, deter (if not keep out) wayward kiddies, and give everyone more privacy. Still waiting for delivery/installation date during May. So am just hoping that no under-5 drowns in the pool before the pool alarm gets delivered ! We don't accept children in the gite, so that reduces the chances a bit ! But if one does find way in and manages to drown, fingers crossed that non-availability of AFNOR approved alarms by the deadline will prove to be some defence ... no, didn't really think it would !! Would be interested to hear what others are doing ! Best wishes Jean-Paul

Dear Krill Thanks for passing on the information. Just to make matters even more confusing (were that possible ...) the April 2004 edition of French News carries a piece in its Citizens' Advice column (page 11) that includes : "AFNOR informs me it is extremely unlikely that any product which currently conforms will not conform in the revision. Until the revision is official, any device installed now must conform to the current standards. YOU WILL NOT BE REQUIRED TO CHANGE DEVICES ONCE THE REVISION IS FINALISED" So now that's all clear isn't it ??? If both accounts are accurate AFNOR seem to have the left hand/right hand problem !! Any one have any other info on the revisions ? Best wishes Jean-Paul

Dear Krill Thanks for passing on the information. Just to make matters even more confusing (were that possible ...) the April 2004 edition of French News carries a piece in its Citizens' Advice column (page 11) that includes : "AFNOR informs me it is extremely unlikely that any product which currently conforms will not conform in the revision. Until the revision is official, any device installed now must conform to the current standards. YOU WILL NOT BE REQUIRED TO CHANGE DEVICES ONCE THE REVISION IS FINALISED" So now that's all clear isn't it ??? If both accounts are accurate AFNOR seem to have the left hand/right hand problem !! Any one have any other info on the revisions ? Best wishes Jean-Paul

LAST EDITED ON 30-Mar-04 AT 07:14 PM (GMT) Dear alorrain ... and just remind me of the relevance of the ethnic background of the security guard ?? As with other such postings in the past, the posting would have lost none of its impact without that reference ... But I know others will won't like my saying so ... Best wishes Jean-Paul

Folks I've now received a reply from AFNOR re when they expect to publish the revised norms : "La parution de cette norme est prvue pour dbut mai 2004. Le problme est effectivement que si vous louez votre piscines, vous devez tre conforme pour le 1er mai 2004. Pour obtenir plus d'informations sur l'application de la loi dans votre cas, nous vous suggrons de contacter le service "Info-Logement" du ministre de l'quipement au 01 40 81 96 17 ou au 01 40 81 91 86." So they expect to issue the revised norms at the beginning of May - and have reaffirmed that we're expected to have conformed by 1st May. Great !! Perhaps someone with better French than mine fancies phoning the numbers given ? Perhaps you should ask whether the French government has mastered the art of time travel - because that's the only way I can see we can have the precautions in place BEFORE we're told what they are !! On the other hand a friend has just told me of a meeting of his local Gites de France he has just been to, when they were told not to do anything for the time being (must be a first for GdF !!) as the date for implementation is likely to be put back. Nice consistency ... C'est la vie !! Jean-Paul

Folks I've now received a reply from AFNOR re when they expect to publish the revised norms : "La parution de cette norme est prvue pour dbut mai 2004. Le problme est effectivement que si vous louez votre piscines, vous devez tre conforme pour le 1er mai 2004. Pour obtenir plus d'informations sur l'application de la loi dans votre cas, nous vous suggrons de contacter le service "Info-Logement" du ministre de l'quipement au 01 40 81 96 17 ou au 01 40 81 91 86." So they expect to issue the revised norms at the beginning of May - and have reaffirmed that we're expected to have conformed by 1st May. Great !! Perhaps someone with better French than mine fancies phoning the numbers given ? Perhaps you should ask whether the French government has mastered the art of time travel - because that's the only way I can see we can have the precautions in place BEFORE we're told what they are !! On the other hand a friend has just told me of a meeting of his local Gites de France he has just been to, when they were told not to do anything for the time being (must be a first for GdF !!) as the date for implementation is likely to be put back. Nice consistency ... C'est la vie !! Jean-Paul

Folks Richard has highlighted in the current thread "Pool fencing again" that following initial tests upon pool protection products that have been submitted by manufacturers for certification in accordance with the AFNOR norms, AFNOR have decided to take the "opportunity" of lessons learnt from the tests to "clarify or complete" certain provisions in the norms ! With 5 weeks to go to the 1st May deadline for installation in collective pools !!! AFNOR have now further confirmed the above, having e-mailed those of us who were foolhardy enough to want to ensure we remained law abiding French residents, and who paid out the 80 or so for a set of the norms published in December, to advise us of the above and to offer to provide us with revised sets of norms (when available). -------------------------- The beginning of the AFNOR e-mail reads : "AFNOR tient vous signaler que la Commission de normalisation a engag la rvision des quatre normes relatives aux quipements de protection des piscines prives. En effet, la suite de la parution de ces normes en dcembre 2003, les fabricants ont confi leurs produits aux laboratoires pour effectuer des essais afin d'en vrifier la conformit. Les exprimentations ont rvl l'opportunit de prciser ou de complter certaines dispositions des normes. Dans ce contexte, la Commission de normalisation a dcid d'engager aussitt une procdure de rvision de ces normes. Cette rvision concerne les quatre normes relatives aux barrires de protection, aux systmes d'alarmes, aux couvertures et aux abris de piscine. Les amendements ces normes sont actuellement proposs l'enqute probatoire que vous pouvez consulter sur le site AFNOR http://www.afnor.fr Espace Normalisation, rubrique Avant-projets l'enqute probatoire, thme Sports et loisirs." ------------------- So the good news is that anyone can now access (free of charge) the DRAFT norms through the above website. The following link may work to take you straight to the section referred to above, from where you can download the latest draft norms : http://www.afnor.fr/portail.asp?colfond=Bleu&ref=ESP%5FNormalisation&pref=PRT&lang=French The bad news is that goodness knows when the norms will be finalised and whether this will be in time to certify products before they are supplied to us to meet the 1st May deadline !!! The following link may work to take you straight to the website of the laboratory doing the testing, which lists those products tested and approved so far ... a big fat ZERO as at today's date - 5 weeks from implementation !!!! http://www.lne.fr/fr/certification/liste_construction_habitat.shtml In the meantime, I guess the best we can do is to ensure when placing any order with suppliers (e.g. of fencing or alarms) that they confirm the product has been submitted for testing, and that should it fail to meet the finalised AFNOR standards, they will either reimburse our money or (more usefully) provide us with a revised product that does actually meet the standards !! The other good news may be that this may be an "opportunity" for AFNOR to change the following requirement in the draft norms for pool alarms : "6.2 Exigences 6.2.1 Exigences gnrales (sensibilit, homognit de dtection) Le dtecteur doit avoir le champ libre sur tout endroit o peut avoir lieu limmersion et ne jamais en tre loign de plus de 7 m." Which I believe states that the alarm must be no more than 7 metres from any potential point of immersion in the pool (i.e. from the furthest corner of the pool). If my schoolboy maths is right, even a 10mx5m pool with an alarm situated halfway up one side, will have 7.07m to the furthest corner. For an 11mx5m pool the furthest corner will be 7.4m from the alarm. For a 12mx5m pool 7.8m !!!! Which would seem to suggest that worse case all pools of the above sizes would need 2 alarms !! Or am I misinterpreting what the norms say and worrying about nothing ??? If so, please someone enlighten us !! The only alternative I can see would be to install the detector on a "shelf" that enables the detector to go into the pool a little way from the side of the pool. By my calculations such a shelf would need to protrude into the pool by (for each of above measurements) : 10cm, 67cm, or 1.4M !!! And in any case, I guess such an installation might not meet various of the other requirements !! Anyone help with the above ??? Or anyone in a position to advise whether AFNOR are alre

Folks Richard has highlighted in the current thread "Pool fencing again" that following initial tests upon pool protection products that have been submitted by manufacturers for certification in accordance with the AFNOR norms, AFNOR have decided to take the "opportunity" of lessons learnt from the tests to "clarify or complete" certain provisions in the norms ! With 5 weeks to go to the 1st May deadline for installation in collective pools !!! AFNOR have now further confirmed the above, having e-mailed those of us who were foolhardy enough to want to ensure we remained law abiding French residents, and who paid out the 80 or so for a set of the norms published in December, to advise us of the above and to offer to provide us with revised sets of norms (when available). -------------------------- The beginning of the AFNOR e-mail reads : "AFNOR tient vous signaler que la Commission de normalisation a engag la rvision des quatre normes relatives aux quipements de protection des piscines prives. En effet, la suite de la parution de ces normes en dcembre 2003, les fabricants ont confi leurs produits aux laboratoires pour effectuer des essais afin d'en vrifier la conformit. Les exprimentations ont rvl l'opportunit de prciser ou de complter certaines dispositions des normes. Dans ce contexte, la Commission de normalisation a dcid d'engager aussitt une procdure de rvision de ces normes. Cette rvision concerne les quatre normes relatives aux barrires de protection, aux systmes d'alarmes, aux couvertures et aux abris de piscine. Les amendements ces normes sont actuellement proposs l'enqute probatoire que vous pouvez consulter sur le site AFNOR http://www.afnor.fr Espace Normalisation, rubrique Avant-projets l'enqute probatoire, thme Sports et loisirs." ------------------- So the good news is that anyone can now access (free of charge) the DRAFT norms through the above website. The following link may work to take you straight to the section referred to above, from where you can download the latest draft norms : http://www.afnor.fr/portail.asp?colfond=Bleu&ref=ESP%5FNormalisation&pref=PRT&lang=French The bad news is that goodness knows when the norms will be finalised and whether this will be in time to certify products before they are supplied to us to meet the 1st May deadline !!! The following link may work to take you straight to the website of the laboratory doing the testing, which lists those products tested and approved so far ... a big fat ZERO as at today's date - 5 weeks from implementation !!!! http://www.lne.fr/fr/certification/liste_construction_habitat.shtml In the meantime, I guess the best we can do is to ensure when placing any order with suppliers (e.g. of fencing or alarms) that they confirm the product has been submitted for testing, and that should it fail to meet the finalised AFNOR standards, they will either reimburse our money or (more usefully) provide us with a revised product that does actually meet the standards !! The other good news may be that this may be an "opportunity" for AFNOR to change the following requirement in the draft norms for pool alarms : "6.2 Exigences 6.2.1 Exigences gnrales (sensibilit, homognit de dtection) Le dtecteur doit avoir le champ libre sur tout endroit o peut avoir lieu limmersion et ne jamais en tre loign de plus de 7 m." Which I believe states that the alarm must be no more than 7 metres from any potential point of immersion in the pool (i.e. from the furthest corner of the pool). If my schoolboy maths is right, even a 10mx5m pool with an alarm situated halfway up one side, will have 7.07m to the furthest corner. For an 11mx5m pool the furthest corner will be 7.4m from the alarm. For a 12mx5m pool 7.8m !!!! Which would seem to suggest that worse case all pools of the above sizes would need 2 alarms !! Or am I misinterpreting what the norms say and worrying about nothing ??? If so, please someone enlighten us !! The only alternative I can see would be to install the detector on a "shelf" that enables the detector to go into the pool a little way from the side of the pool. By my calculations such a shelf would need to protrude into the pool by (for each of above measurements) : 10cm, 67cm, or 1.4M !!! And in any case, I guess such an installation might not meet various of the other requirements !! Anyone help with the above ??? Or anyone in a position to advise whether AFNOR are alre

Folks Watching a recent "place in the sun" type programme (yes, I'm addicted like everyone else !!), there was a discussion amongst British ex-pat bar owners in Goa about how much they paid the (local) people who worked for (I prefer "with") them. Some were saying they were comfortable paying the relatively (very ?) low average rate that local people got paid for such work ("we earn in rupees/local prices, so why not pay in rupees/local wages"). Others were expressing some disquiet that "my customers are showing off their relative wealth, whilst I'm paying my staff what seems to be a pittance". It got me thinking about how much it is fair for me to pay local people who may do gite cleaning/changeovers etc - always to a very high standard in my experience. Does one pay the "local going rate" (in which case what is that ?) or does one pay more to reflect the fact that most of one's gite prices/income is at relatively high British rates ? Or would that be in danger of being seen as charity ? Any thoughts ? What do others pay ?? And whilst on this subject, what is peoples' experience of the cheque d'emploi system currently under discussion elsewhere ? Does one's "employee" still have to pay income tax ? Any thoughts welcome ! Best wishes Jean-Paul