Boiling a frog

This is a response I have received by email from one of the Scottish MEP's Thank you for your recent email regarding the French Government’s decision to restrict access to free health and social security benefits. As I understand the proposal, it would cover not only foreign residents in France but French nationals too and it does not affect people who have retired at retirement age and are living in France. President Sarkozy apparently said that he had no objection to people retiring early but they could not expect French taxpayers to pay for them to do so.   These new French rules differ from those in the UK, where non-British citizens permanently residing in the UK are eligible for the same free NHS treatment as British citizens even if they are non-active. However, the same principle applies for retirees in both countries; as soon as someone becomes eligible for a pension then they are covered by their country of origin rather than country of residence when it comes to health and social security benefits.   I have written to the European Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection, Markos Kyprianou, about your concerns. The EU rules on this matter state that non-nationals residing in any EU country must be treated in exactly the same way as that country's nationals. I have asked Mr Kyprianou to investigate whether the new French rules infringe this principle. I shall contact you again as soon as I receive his response.   Yours sincerely,   John Purvis Member of the European Parliament for Scotland.       So it appears that if French inactives are excluded so are we .The big question is:  Does this legislation exist because I cannot find it. I await  my reply from the European Health Commissioner   

 I have been here since March 2002,my Titre de sejour says so,and I have made a tax return since 2003,I am registered to vote in the municipal elections, but CPAM tell me I lose my health care rights after March 2008. I reiterate   According to CPAM Charente there is no such thing as a five vear rule in relation to receiving health care via CMU  

It is all very well saying print out the legislation and apply for your titre de sejour but one then has to deal with the French bureaucracy. Realising that a new titre de sejour would perhaps come in handy and with my old one about to expire I trotted off last week  to the mairie armed with print outs of the actual legislation I was met with a firm but polite NON I insisted and the secretary telephoned the Prefecture and she was met with a NON from the prefecture.We do not issue titre de sejour,s to EU citizens. The legislation was produced but it was still a polite NON. I said that I may be asked by CPAM to prove I had been here more than 5 years that was why I wanted a titre de Sejour. The reply was that no French Govt dept has the right to demand a titre de sejour from an EU citizen. And yesterday when being informed that I only had until 31st March next year for cover the CPAM rep was not even interested in my titre de sejour .It was a straight everyone who is not working will need private health assurance it matters not a jot how long one has been in France.    

We were at CPAM  Charente today re the letter about not having received our application for CMU The person explained that it was an error and verified that our dossier had in fact been received. He also informed us that our cover would run out on 31st March next year and showed us a circular from securite sociale to CPAM dated 4th October which basically reiterated the info on the Secu web site re inactives. We questioned the ""5 year rule"" He knew nothing about it and phoned CPAM head office in Angouleme who said that several Britaniques had already mentioned this but that they had nothing about it and repeated that ALL inactives presently subscribed to CMU had until 31st March 2008. He also showed us what appeared to be a standard letter prepared by the Secu which CPAM will be sending out shortly reiterating this info. I only got a quick glance at this so cannot say what it actually say. i informed him about the British Embassy announcement and he phoned someone else.They said that discussions were continueing but reiterated that 31st March was the cut off date for everyone I will email when this is received.   

Some information As all are aware the information asked for this year to apply for health care under CMU was a bit different. The information being asked for was due to new anti fraud measures which have been put in place. Included in these new anti fraud measures are an examination of peoples lifestyle/property if they are claiming a low income. As a result all applications  for CMU are being closely examined and liason is going on with the tax authorities,and this applies in particular to the Britaniques. One particular thing they are investigating is undeclared income from Gites. As a result most of the CMU applications have not been processed yet. The CPAM computer has not been updated with the fact that these applications have been received but not yet processed ,so as a result an automated computer generated letter has been sent out. We can blame CPAM for this if we want but our fellow Brits in the Dordogne who were claiming RMI hence CMU for free but obtaining a very healthy living from Gites and B & B's are partialy responsible for these antifraud measures being put in place  

Its a conspiracy I received a similar letter today as well,in spite of the fact I handed in my paperwork personally to CPAM I recon they posted these letters out knowing that we would get them on Saturday and then spend all weekend worrying When we all phone up on Monday they will say it is a mistake They will then have a good laugh having wound up the Britaniques again Is their any relevance that England beat France at the Rugby

For starters it would not matter a jot who you employ you would pay TVA at 19.6% as it is not an existing house. It is perfectly legal for a buisness in the UK to work in France without registering as long as they follow a few rules The contract must be made in the UK and payment made in the UK   The enterprise cannot employ any french resident The enterprise cannot have a base in France The work carried out is incidental to the main work in the UK ie you cannot start up a coy in the UK and then do all your work in France It seems that you would qualify on all counts Just make sure that they all have public liability insurance and personal insurance in case they injure themselves.  

Nowhere does it say that people will then after 5 years be entitled to health care via CMU. They will only have the right of residence without having to comply with the conditions laid down in Chapter 3. Even the Briish Embassy statement is vague It says   Access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries We have held further discussions with the French Health Ministry and have established that the French Government has now changed its position regarding access to the French healthcare system for early retirees from other EU countries already residing in France. According to the French Government's published statement (http://www.securite-sociale.fr) the position is: All inactive EU citizens already accessing CMU healthcare coverage will continue to do so until 31 March 2008 after which they will be required to have their own personal medical insurance, unless their inactive status changes in the meantime. All inactive EU citizens under retirement age (ie those already resident in France and those planning to move in future) who are not entitled to healthcare reimbursement (through the E106 or E109 forms), will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they reach UK retirement age (and therefore qualify for entitlement to the E121 form), or until they qualify as a French resident (which is after 5 years of regular, uninterrupted residence). People already over retirement age who are holders of an E121 which is registered with the French authorities will remain unaffected.  One can read this statement two ways All inactive EU citizens under retirement age who are not entitled to healthcare via E106 or E109 will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they qualify as a French resident after 5 years of regular uninterupted residence and will thereafter be entitled to health care via the CMU (my words in red) or All inactive EU citizens under retirement age who are not entitled to healthcare via E106 or E109 will be required to have their own personal medical insurance until they qualify as a French resident after five years of regular uninterupted residence after which they will no longer be required to have their own personal medical insurance as they will have aquired the right to permenant residence in France Why, if it is certain and beyond doubt that the first senario will apply, does the Embassy statement not say so. And why do CPAM and the Social security website not say so,in fact CPAM english speaking helpline yesterday told me that there were no exeptions to the requirement to obtain private medical assurance if one did not have cover via E106,E109 or E121,it did not matter how long one had been in France. I hope the first senario applies as I will qualify having been in France since 2002 with a titre de sejour to prove it  but I have sought clarification from CPAM,Briish Embassy,DPW Newcastle and my MEP and MP but have not had any confirmation as yet that this senario no 1  applies infact the exact opposite from CPAM  .  

I am not being pedantic but the law only says you have the right to stay in France after 5 years of legal and continuous residence without having to fulfil the conditions laid down ie Health cover Adequate funds not to be a burden on the social security system. Nowhere does it say  ""and you will have the right to health cover under CMU"" The CPAM english speaking helpline yesterday Friday 12th October stated that the rules as far as they were concerned were that unless in receipt of an E106 or E121 everyone had to take out private medical assurance.There were no rules about after 5 years or anything else. That is not to say that things will change  

In order to stay more than three months in France you will need to prove that 1) you will not be a burden on the state .If you have two children you will need a minimum income of around 950€ per month. 2) You will need health insurance .Either by way of private medical assurance or an E106 or an E121   The 5 year rule has not been confirmed as yet and it may only mean that after 5 years you do not have to prove a minimum income and health assurance to enable one to remain in France

Perhaps the OP badly worded the question. In early October one receives a notification from CPAM/URSSAF the amount of cotisations due for CMU cover for the following year.This is then split into 4 payments the first due end of December. The notification is presumably what the OP refers to and someone on another forum received this notification followed a few days later by a letter telling them that their CMU cover was being withdrawn In the aforementioned case by the OP presumably already affiliated to CMU they will pay  by 31st December then 31st March(which is the cut off date) and will then have to find private medical assurance They will only have paid 2 parts of the yearly cotisation so no refund due

I am also an early retired,have been here in France since March 2002 as shown on my titre de sejour am an inactive and pay into CMU for health care.Have filed tax returns etc etc Today phoned the english speaking helpline re 5 year residency status and subscription to CMU.Their reply was that they know nothing about this  and that as far as they are concerned everyone on CMU at present will have to take out private medical insurance in March 2008 . I think we should really be pressing the UK Government for clarification of the British Embassy and the Department of Works and Pensions statements on their websites I have already contacted Mary Honeyball MEP plus my own Scottish MEP        

Flights commence Spring 2008 Rynair to Stansted    and GB airways to Gatwick Ryanair 3 times a week GB airways daily Only for 30 weeks a year Easyjet also interested and a new low cost French airline

Perhaps try and speak with some of the French parents would go some way to avoid this problem.After all what it sound like is a clique of English not wanting to talk to the French just like some in our local bar who insist in standing in a huddle,talking loudly in English,and not even making an effort to speak some French Try and see it from the other side

And perhaps hence the reason for the French change in health care entitlement.   You need to go to the tax office and get a tax form  that is a legal obligation not being able to speak French is not a defence if you want to live in a country learn the language You complete them as a couple Your joint income is taxable You will not get a reduction in tax And why do you think that you should get any other benefit

The quote was direct from the British Embassy Poaris website about your voting rights....   I am going to be a bit of a damp squib here. I have been searching for days to try and find French legislation to permit them to cite EU directive 2004/38 in order to change the rules about subscribing to CMU I am afraid I may have found it On the CMU website http://www.cmu.fr/site/cmu.php4?Id=10&PHPSESSID=b5547406bd5b5d9d687d84eb58e68643 It says CMU de base : y avez-vous droit ? Y avez-vous droit ? A quoi avez-vous droit ? Obtenir la CMU de base Pour nous contacter Définition de la CMU de base Règles d'affiliation La cotisation de CMU de base Plafond applicable à la cotisation de CMU de base   Résider en France de manière stable et n cours régulièrePour pouvoir bénéficier de la couverture maladie universelle de base, vous devez résider en France de façon stable et régulière. La résidence stable est réputée acquise après 3 mois de résidence. Cette condition est applicable à tous, français ou étrangers. En outre, les personnes étrangères doivent avoir un titre de séjour ede validité ou un document attestant qu’elles ont demandé le renouvellement du titre de séjour ou encore une attestation de dépôt de demande d’asile (c’est la résidence régulière). Le délai de trois mois n’est pas opposable aux personnes inscrites dans un établissement d’enseignement ou effectuant un stage dans le cadre d’un accord de coopération, aux bénéficiaires de certaines prestations (prestations familiales, prestations logement, RMI ou autre), et aux personnes de nationalité étrangère, reconnues réfugiées ou ayant demandé le statut de réfugié. Les personnes sans domicile au moment de la demande doivent élire domicile auprès d’un Centre communal d’action sociale ou d’un organisme agréé par l’autorité préfectorale. Ne pas disposer d’un autre droit à l’assurance maladieVous êtes concerné par la CMU de base uniquement si vous n’êtes pas couvert par un régime d'assurance maladie obligatoire à un autre titre. En cas de doute, vous devez vous adresser à la caisse primaire d’assurance maladie (CPAM) du département ou de la circonscription de votre résidence qui fera le point sur votre situation. Vous cessez d’être assuré au titre de la résidence dès lors que votre situation change (emploi, situation familiale, départ du territoire). Les pupilles de l’Etat sont assurés au titre de la résidence. Ne peuvent être assurés au titre de la résidence les membres du personnel consulaire et diplomatique, ainsi que leur famille, les personnes venues en France pour y recevoir des soins et les retraités des organisations internationales. Au dessus d’un plafond de ressources, une cotisationLes assurés au titre de la résidence doivent s’acquitter d’une cotisation de 8 % de leurs revenus fiscaux. La cotisation n’est pas due sur la part des revenus inférieure à un plafond déterminé. De plus, les bénéficiaires du RMI ou de la CMU complémentaire sont exonérés de cette cotisation. Pour en savoir plus, n’hésitez pas à contacter la caisse d'assurance maladie de votre domicile : CMU de base : liste des CPAM Accueil > La CMU et vous > CMU de base > CMU de base : y avez-vous droit ? > Fonds CMU © 2004 tous droits réservés www.cmu.fr - Mentions légales- Réalisation : IciPlanet   Now my reading of this is  you have the right to subscribe to the CMU if you have been in stable residence for three months but if you are not a French citizen a further rule applies.You also need a valid Titre de Sejour or have applied for its renewal or are an asylum seeker. You will not be able to get a Titre de sejour unless you have health assurance and have adequate means of support.so you will not be able to subscribe to the CMU So it seems that unless you had applied for a titre de sejour when it was required back before 2003/2004? you will not be entitled to CMU Hopefully I am wrong     

Just a small point but we are entitled to vote in european elections in the area where we were formerly resident in the UK provided that you have not been away from the UK for more than 15 years :  I live overseas, how do I register to vote? A:  If you are a British citizen over 18 years of age living abroad, but you have been registered to vote in the UK within the last 15 years, you can apply to be an overseas voter (or overseas elector). If you were younger than 18 years of age when you left the UK, your parent or guardian must have been registered. Once registered as an overseas voter, you are entitled to vote in elections to the UK and European Parliaments, but not UK local government elections or elections for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly. For further information and to register as an overseas voter, download and complete the electoral registration form for British citizens living overseas and return it to the Electoral Registration Office covering the address where you were last registered to vote in the UK (the addresses are also available on the website). If you would like to vote by post or by proxy, you can complete either the postal or proxy vote application form that forms part of the registration form.

This is my version which I have sent to all 7 Scottish MEP,s   Current Situation Following the European Directive 2004/38 the French government enacted Loi 2006-911 of 24th July 2006 to comply with this directive   Among other things the directive spells out that people who are inactive (I believe I fall into this category) if they wish to reside in another European country must have health assurance and not be a burden on the state Loi 2006-911 also contains this restriction   I have no argument with this   However the French Government has recently made an announcement citing Directive 2004/38 and Loi2006-911 to justify the following decisions. 1) Anyone coming to France with an E106 will need to find private medical assurance on the expiry of their E106 2) Anyone with an E121 will continue to receive care in France 3) Anyone already in France and receiving CMU will have 6 months to find private health care 4) Anyone arriving in France without an E106 or E121 will need to find their own private health care.   I fall into the third category I have been legally resident in France , have been legally contributing to the French health care system, but now I am told that I fall into the category of an inactive who wishes to enter and reside in France. I would assume that this directive only came into force after it was enacted into French law on 24th July 2006 and did not apply to people who were already legally in France  but I stand to be corrected.   This is obviously going to affect many hundreds of European citizens if not thousands. Here is the French announcement   Au regard du droit communautaire, la libre circulation et le droit de séjour des citoyens européens sont des principes et ceux-ci ne peuvent se voir exiger un titre de séjour. Néanmoins, une directive de 2004 fixe certains critères pour les inactifs ainsi que les étudiants et les membres de leur famille : Au titre de la directive 2004/38, la régularité du séjour de ces personnes dans un autre Etat membre que leur Etat d’origine est conditionnée par 2 critères : - la détention d'une assurance maladie préalable - des ressources suffisantes afin de ne pas devenir une charge déraisonnable pour les finances de l'Etat d'accueil. Cette nouvelle directive a été transposée en droit français notamment par la loi 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 et par le décret 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007. Ces deux textes qui reprennent fidèlement ces deux critères conduisent à considérer qu’un ressortissant communautaire inactif venant résider dans notre pays ne peut se prévaloir d’un droit au séjour s’il n’est pas titulaire au préalable d’une couverture maladie. Au regard de ces deux textes, voici les précisions que souhaite apporter la sécurité sociale concernant la situation des ressortissants britanniques : 1) Il n'y a pas dans la réglementation française de mesure spécifiques en matière d'assurance maladie pour les ressortissants britanniques. Ceux-ci reçoivent le même traitement, en droits et en obligations, que les autres citoyens de l'Union européenne résidant ou venant résider en France. 2) Il n'y a aucune modification pour les personnes qui peuvent présenter une attestation (E 106 ou E 121) de droit aux prestations d'assurance maladie délivrée par l'administration britannique. Ils continuent à pouvoir s'inscrire auprès de la CPAM de leur lieu de résidence pour bénéficier des prestations françaises servies pour le compte du régime britannique, aussi longtemps que ces attestations sont valables. 3) Pour les personnes inactives qui bénéficiaient déjà de la CMU du fait de la réglementation antérieure, il leur est accordé un délai pour 6 mois, pour s'affilier à une assurance privée. Pendant cette période, ils continueront à être couverts par la CMU. 4) Pour les nouvelles demandes, c'est à dire pour les personnes inactives qui viennent résider en France et sollicitent le bénéfice de la CMU, les CPAM doivent refuser car, aux termes de la directive européenne 2004/38 sur le droit de séjour des citoyens de l'Union européenne (transposée notamment sur cet aspect par le décret n° 2007-371 du 21 mars 2007), ces personnes inactives doivent détenir une assurance maladie préalable à leur installation en France. 5) Si une personne inactive n'est pas couverte par le régime d'assurance maladie d'un autre Etat membre au moment de son installation en France, elles doivent contracter une assurance privée avant ou dès leur arrivée en France. 6) Des instructions vont être rapidement diffusées aux caisses d'assurance maladie françaises pour leur rappeler ces dispositions et leur préciser qu'elles s'appliquent à toutes les personnes concernées, seules les personnes déjà admises à la CMU bénéficiant du délai mentionné au point 3) ci-dessus. 7) Pour toute information complémentaire concernant leur situation personnelle, les concernées peuvent s'adresser aux services de la CNAMTS (service téléphonique anglophone + 33 (0)8 20 90 42 12) ou au CLEISS (+ 33 (0)1 45 26 33 41).       I have telephoned the help lines who have no information except stating that I am no longer entitled to Health care via CMU and will have to find private medical assurance.   The United Kingdom department of Pensions and Works Overseas Division also have no information on the current situation but say the British Embassy in Paris is in negotiation with the French health authorities.   The CMU rules as they stand at the moment, or at least if the French have not altered them without updating their website are available on the internet   C.M.U. et C.M.U. complémentaire ## Attention à ne pas confondre la Couverture maladie universelle (C.M.U.) de base et la C.M.U. complémentaire. La première est une protection maladie obligatoire pour les personnes résidant en France et qui ne sont pas déjà couvertes par un autre régime obligatoire d'Assurance Maladie. La seconde est une protection complémentaire (comparable à une mutuelle) accordée sur critères de ressources. La C.M.U. de base Pour bénéficier de la C.M.U. de base, vous devez être en situation régulière, résider en France de manière stable depuis au moins trois mois et n'être pas déjà couvert par un autre régime obligatoire de Sécurité sociale. La C.M.U. de base n'est pas attribuée sous conditions de ressources, mais une cotisation vous sera demandée si vos revenus dépassent un certain plafond. La C.M.U. de base vous ouvre droit aux remboursements de vos soins et médicaments aux taux habituels appliqués aux autres assurés sociaux. Comme eux, vous avancez les frais puis l'Assurance Maladie vous rembourse entre 35 % et 65 % du prix pour les médicaments, entre 60 % et 100 % pour les actes et prestations.     Full details are available here   http://www.ameli.fr/fiches-synthetiques/c.m.u.-et-c.m.u.-complementaire_charente.php       It seems that the French are applying the European directive to exclude people from CMU by saying that they are not in stable residence despite the fact that they may have resided legally in France for a number of years.   It may be the case that the British Government is in talks with the French authorities  but at the moment all we have to go on is a statement from the French Sociale Securite and a multitude of rumour and speculation which is causing great distress to many   One final point   If the French do decide that I will require private health care this will mean  that I will not be eligible for a European health card  from the French authorities or from the British authorities       I wonder what your thoughts are on this   Yours truly, xxxxx    

I was making the point that anyone who feels that they have or will be affected should act now before it is too late to act.There is no point in sitting on your backside hoping it is going to go away,or that  we should wait and see,because by that time it will probably be too late to do anything Perhaps remember these words by Martin Niemoller: First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.

Rather than whinging on about lack of updates on Government sites get off your backsides and contact your MEP with your concerns

All I can suggest at the moment  is (providing you have not been out of the UK for more than 15 years) is to contact your local European MP where you previously resided in the UK http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersMain.htm   To find your local MEP I have already been in initial contact and am at present trying to compile an e mail with the facts as I see them.   And no as I said these are not final decisions I was advised to telephone back to the DWP in a month

I spoke to the Dept of Pensions Overseas Division yesterday and they had just received an e mail from the British Embassy in Paris who are in continuing talks with the French   There is no change at present as far as the rules laid out by the French Social securite except on one point. Anyone on an E106 at present willl have to find private health assurance once E106 expires. Anyone on E121   No change Anyone on CMU at present will have until 30th April 2008 and then will have to obtain Private health assurance except  if you have been in France for more than 5 years and can prove that you have been here for more than 5 years your CMU cover will remain The DWP were unable to tell me what proof will be required or at what date the French will go back 5 years from This part is not written in stone as yet Everything is in a state of flux at the moment ands even the liason officer on the French side for the DPW cannot give them (DPW) any answers

And  at 1504 yesterday 19/9/2007 I received this reply Thank you for your e-mail.   Enquiries concerning health cover for British Citizens residing in France should be made to the DWP Overseas Medical Benefits help-line on 00 44 191 218 1999 which is open on Mondays to Fridays from 08.00 to 20.00. Alternatively, information can be obtained direct from the English language service of the Caisse Primaire d'Assurance Maladie (French social security service) on 00 33 8 20 90 42 12 and from the CLEISS (France's helpdesk for international mobility and social security) on 00 33 1 45 26 33 41. Yours Sincerely, Consular Services.   A great help considering I had already phoned CPAM english help line who said that they did not know what the legislation was.  

When you arrive with your E106/E121 you register with CPAM NOT with CMU .FromPeter Owens website http://www.expathealthdirect.co.uk/eforms.htm   Registration with CPAM  via E106 or E121 does not come within the scope of CMU legislation. Therefore it is only after the expiry of the E106 that you apply for cover under CMU legislation   Registration with CPAM via E106 and E121 does not come within the scope of the CMU legislation so no financial contribution is required apart from the inherent top up element that characterises the funding of healthcare in France.   Registration with CPAM via E106 and E121 does not come within the scope of the CMU legislation so no financial contribution is required apart from the inherent top up element that characterises the funding of healthcare in France. Registration with CPAM via E106 and E121 does not come within the scope of the CMU legislation so no financial contribution is required apart from the inherent top up element that characterises the funding of healthcare in France.

Do not think that that is correct   When you arrive with your E106 you register with CPAM not with CMU When your E106 runs out you need to apply for cover with CPAM via CMU