Rabbie

Thank you Ebaynut for that resume of the UKIP manifesto.  However I am interested in the answer to YCCMB's question. Which of these items is the key one for you? I agree with you on some points but not on all. Nigel Farage is an extremely good communicator even if I am opposed to him. He does seem to be  more of an ordinary person than the other political leaders but I am sure he is not. If he were then he wouldn't be as effective as he is. On defence I agree with improving the facilities for treating our troops but I am not convinced that our so-called independent nuclear deterrent gives value for money. For starters it is inconceivable that it would ever be used without the agreement of the US government and secondly the main threat to our national security seems to come from Middle Eastern sponsored terrorism where a nuclear response does not seem to be appropriate. I agree totally with your suggestions about abattoirs. Absolutely no need to allow ritual slaughter. Animals should be slaughtered as humanely as possible. I agree with you about increasing Nuclear Energy subject to us managing to find a safe way of dealing with the products at the end. I am a little concerned with the fact that the nuclear power stations will be build by the company submitting the lowest bid, using components suppplied by firms also submitting the lowest bids. Cheapest is not always the best As for Inheritance Tax I disagree with you. The Government have to raise a certain amount of Tax revenue each year and if they reduce/abolish this tax then they have to raise other taxes to compensate. Personally I would rather pay my share of taxes when I am dead than when I am alive. Besides anybody with an estate worth over  1 million should be able to afford a good tax avoidance consultant[:)].  

You are lucky. Here in rural Wiltshire just a mile from the centre of town we don't get mail deliveries until about 14:30.

Mrs Rabbie is a vet and has prescribed Bravecto to many of her clients dogs. We have also used it on our own much loved dogs. We have had no reports of any side effects. We have not seen any reports in the Veterinary Press about these side effects so I wonder how accurate these reports are

I wonder if the French will accept the Belgian 2.5 euro coin.

Ebaysnut, I think it is offensive to accuse someone of lying. You may think that is OK but I don't. The problem of the illegal immigrants coming across the Mediterranean will still be a problem even if the UK leaves the EU. The only immigration that will be affected if there is a Brexit is the currently legal immigration from other EU countries.

This highlights an issue that all of us should discuss with our nearest and dearest. Mrs Rabbie and I have discussed this and we would make the same decision as Val in similar circumstances. Of course I would not want the life support system turned off before any of my transplantable organs had been taken but otherwise I have no desire to live as a cabbage.

[quote user="ebaynut"]Rabbie wrote, The danger of quoting something like this is that it gives credence to some of the myths surrounding immigration to the UK. It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function. As Lindal1000 says the UK government does not run food banks but some people reading the post may well think so. In my opinion this issue is too important to decided by people's misunderstanding of the real situation. The decision should be made on the basis of facts not on myths, perceptions and misunderstandings This is indeed so, so why do you keep banging on with your lie ‘It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function’ Total and utter rubbish!!!, the NHS would be a far better place without immigrants in it. If you took all the people in the UK that are employed trying deal with, and to keep the immigrant population under control, such as the Police, social workers, child support agencies, immigration control, border force, crime detection agencies, social workers, officers in operation trident in London, MI5, anti terrorist units, add to them the cost to the legal system in dealing with immigrants, providing homes to them, as none have anything of worth to bring into the UK and this is just to name a few, if all the people in the above named professions were to be employed in the NHS, there would be no shortage. Its just that the government prefer to offer peanuts in pay in the NHS, that it seems to attract immigrants. If they paid a proper wage, many of the people in the aforementioned professions, would no doubt be happy to work in the NHS. Then if you deduct the number of immigrants who use the NHS from the figures, the amount of staff needed would also be far less. Watch the UK news, see the crimes and air time that is taken up with immigrants, perhaps then you will agree, we really do NOT need them here.[/quote]  I always think it is a sign that you are winning an argument when your opponent resorts to abuse. I have stated my honestly held opinions which I do not regard as lying. It has been stated that 17% of NHS staff are immigrants so it seems unlikely they could be dispensed  without being replaced by expensive agency staff that are already costing the NHS a lot of money. According to government statistics the vast majority of EU immigrants are net contributors to the UK economy so I would question your assertion that there are large savings to be made. Living as I do in England I listen to the news on a daily basis and I do not get the same impression of immigrants as you do. I am also puzzled by your assertion that we could reduce the number of people employed by Border force. The argument put forward by most of those in favour of a Brexit is that we could have tighter controls which would be unlikely to need fewer people. Also there is a chance that a Brexit would lead to a return of many retired UK citizens currently living in other EU countries which would increase the pressure on the NHS and Old Age care. As I said earlier the consequences are not easy to predict and leaving the EU is not a panacea as some have suggested. All I ask for is an honest debate about the issues and not descending into personal abuse.

[quote user="ebaynut"]Perhaps Lindal1000 you should read the first line of the post, but in case you missed here it is again, I guess this ‘bird feeder’ joke has been around awhile now, but it does illustrate the situation quite nicely I am sure you will agree. Its just a copy/paste jobby ![/quote]The danger of quoting something like this is that it gives credence to some of the myths surrounding immigration to the UK. It is beyond dispute that without immigrant workers the NHS would not be able to function. As Lindal1000 says the UK government does not run  food banks but some people reading the post may well think so. In my opinion this issue is too important to decided by people's misunderstanding of the real situation. The decision should be made on the basis of facts not on myths, perceptions and misunderstandings

PD, my apologies for misunderstanding your point about tactical voting. I agree with your analysis now I understand your point. I don't think I was being condescending or arrogant in why I thought a lot of people voted for UKIP. It seems rational to me to vote for a party because you think its leader is correct. I could equally say that you are being arrogant in your analysis of my motives. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect a party that wants to take an irreversible step to spell out what it wants to do. In any referendum we should have a clear knowledge about the consequences of our votes. At present there are mixed messages coming from those in favour of a Brexit as to what they want to happen. Clarity will do no harm. If we were all agreed on the correct solution the there would be no need for debate but as we differ in our views on this let's agree to discuss it without personal abuse which invariably leads to more heat than light.

[quote user="powerdesal"]I would guess then that the answer to my original question is that UKIP voters are (supposed to be ) uneducated, have strongly held 'not nice' (ie not PC) opinions etc etc. All 4 million of them, plus the ones who tactically voted to avoid a Labour + SNP alliance. A somewhat arrogant assumption by someone.[/quote]I suspect the majority of those who voted UKIP did so because they thought Nigel Farage was correct in saying all our problems would be solved if the UK left the EU.  No clear explanation has been given as to what the UK does after leaving the EU. Some have suggested something similar to the Norway arrangement but as the Norwegian foreign minister has said this would give the UK all the costs with no say in the rules - hardly a big step forward. If there had been a lot of tactical voting then I would have expected UKIP to have won more seats but as we have a secret ballot then who knows  

No argument with you there, Nick. For me a forum is a public place and I was more thinking that a remark that would be inappropriate in public might not be so if made in the company of friends who you know will agree with you.

[quote user="NickP"][quote user="woolybanana"]'a man who is thought to be typical of drivers of white vans by being being rude, not well educated and having very strong, unpleasant opinions.' (Cambridge Dictionaries Online)[/quote] A description obviously dreamed up by a pompous self styled intellectual, probably a retired school teacher?. I  love the fact that people who think that because they've got one or two GCSE's they have the right to belittle the ordinary working man. [/quote]But not without a certain amount of truth. I suppose whether a remark is judged to be inappropriate or not depends on when and where it is made

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[quote user="Pickles"] I'm really not sure how leaving the EU will reduce illegal immigration. It might reduce legal immigration of EU citizens, but that's it. Are migrants from within the EU a problem? [/quote]You must remember that there are many people who regard the EU as the root cause of all our problems and if the UK leaves then everything will be wonderful. Unfortunately some of them who post on this forum may have to leave the UK if we leave because of pensions and healthcare issues.

a few months ago I heard an interesting discussion on BBC Radio 4 about family sizes in third world countries. Their statistical expert pointed out that family size had shrunk significantly and there were very very few countries where the average number of children per family was more than 3 and this was sinking. Remember that with high infant mortality the culture needed a high birth rate to keep the population stable. A hundred years ago large families were the norm here and it takes time for this to correct itself.

[quote user="pomme"]I use Chrome as my main browser on my PC running Win 7; I do not get the tool bar. I've just checked with my other installed browsers: I don't get the toolbar using Opera 29 (which is now based on Chrome). I don't get the tool bar using Internet Explorer 11. I do get the tool bar if I use Firefox 38. I suspect the problem of missing clickable links and garbled quoted messages will continue for all non-Firefox users until the forum software is upgraded to a later version which works with all current web browsers. [/quote]I am using IE11 and I get the toolbar. Quoted remarks seem to work as well

[quote user="powerdesal"]'' There is no easy solution to this problem - possibly no solution at all but I don't believe that repatriation is a viable option.'' Repatriation is not an acceptable solution ( why not ?) [/quote]Many of the people come from land-locked countries in Africa so the only means of returning their citizens (if in fact you can prove of which country they are citizens) is by air. What do you do if the aircraft are refused permission to land? Parachute them down?

[quote user="idun"]Here's a thought what about sending them home and letting them fight for the what they want chez eux????? There is much in this life I don't get, but why not fight for a better life at home instead of embarking on a very dangerous journey. [/quote]It is not so easy for ordinary people to change a military dictatorship or other corrupt regime. Most of these migrants live in sub-Saharan Africa and conditions must be pretty horrific for them to embark on the long and dangerous trip to the Mediterranean before the even more dangerous crossing. Not something to be undertaken lightly. There is no easy solution to this problem - possibly no solution at all but I don't believe that repatriation is a viable option.

It now seems that this debate is generating more heat than light. The referendum enabling legislation has still got to go through both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. I think it likely that many amendments will be discussed and who knows what the final result will be especially in regard as to who is allowed to vote. It may well be the government accept changes in order to get a result within a reasonable time table. Time will tell

I have done my share of washing up and washing clothes and bedding by hand but I see nothing wrong in having and using a dishwasher and washing machine. Quite frankly I have other things to do with my time than repetitive tasks which are done as well by machine. There are still some things that I wash manually so I don't think being "precious" comes into it.

[quote user="idun"]Ooooowww, I am apparently a nationalist. Because I don't care what foreigners who live in the UK think of this referendum, at all, they have homes to go to, as I did when I lived in France...... and IF I had wanted to go home sooner, I would have done, hence accepting whatever rules were in place for non residents. [/quote]A proportion of foreign EU citizens residents in the UK are married to UK citizens so it is not as simple as you make it appear. I understand you are going to vote for the UK to leave the EU. Well, that is your choice but don't start complaining if that decision has an adverse effect on you pension and healthcare costs.

As P T Barnum is supposed to have said "no-one ever went bust underestimating the intelligence of the public".

This matches my experiences of driving a Swedish registered car in the UK when I was resident in Sweden. While the legal position is as has been stated the enforcement seems to be at a much lower level. I do know of one person who returned to the UK and drove his foreign registered car here for about 18 months before he wrote it off. The car's registration was not one of the things he was charged with so provided the car has valid insurance I don't see it being a major issue especially if it is for only a short period. 

[quote user="mint"][quote user="andyh4"]That did occur to me but can you imagine Nick P's apoplexy if I came to the UK, got on the register and then returned straight back to France?[/quote] Well, andy, you will have to do it without letting Nick P know?[:D] Unless, of course, you actually do wish he'd have apoplexy?[6] On a more serious note, what do people think of the question itself?  Should Britain remain etc (can't remember the rest of it, it's soooo memorable!) [/quote]Personally I will be voting  for the UK to remain in the EU as I feel it is better to have some influence than none. I also feel it is consistent with my view that Scotland should remain part of the UK. Yes I agree with those that think the EU needs reforming, after all no organisation is perfect and I feel we have more chance of improving it from within than from outside. I also feel that EU citizens who have been resident in the UK for more than a certain time should be allowed to vote in the referendum.

[quote user="andyh4"]to add. Salt in the wound is that people currently living in Nicosia, Valetta or Dublin, who have never been to the UK, could now travel to the UK and get put on the register and vote in the referendum. But as a second class British citizen (equivalent in some eyes it seems to a Russian Jew or an Asian Ugandan) I will have no right.[/quote]Of course if it really bothers you, you could also do the same thing and get a vote. The choice is yours