Panda Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Anyone know a good builder cos if these scintillating posts carry on we will all be needing a bit of wall to bang our heads on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memb Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]OK, I've been through where Marton got these entirely spurious figures from, which is a report done for the IPPR for a Channel 4 Despatches programme. In order to show just how easily snyone with an agenda can take statistics out of context and manipulate them to provide fodder for their own argument, however tenuous that argument may be, I reproduce them below with the notes to the tables from which Marton so selectively "lifted" them. I've added the real meanings of the percentages (in brackets) and would recommend that if you're interested, you have a look at the report itself, particularly the bits pertaining to average incomes and average rates of tax and NI being paid by each group. It's a real eye-opener, very interesting, though really not suitable for proving Marton's agenda!!1. Proportion of population claiming Income Support by country of birth 2005/06UK = 4% (being 4% of nearly 53 million people)compared with the highest 3 ... Bangladesh 11% (being 11% of a total population of just over 208,000 or 0.35% of the UK population) / Turkey 21% (being 21% of a total population of just over 69,000 or 0.12% of the UK population) /Somalia 39%.(being 39% of a total population of just over 82,000 0r 0.14% of the UK population) The report goes on to say, in relation to this informationOf all of the groups, those born in the US, the Philippines, Poland, France and Australia arethe least likely to be claiming Income Support. Somalis are the most likely to be claiming it,due to the high incidence of poverty among this group. It is interesting to compare thesefigures with those for the (largely UK-born) population of some of the UK’s most deprivedareas. For example, in the 15 per cent most deprived areas of Scotland, more than 40 percent of children are dependent on a parent or guardian who is in receipt of Income Support(Scottish Executive 2005). Significantly, though, the majority of groups have lower incomesupport take-up rates than the UK-born. Of the groups with higher rates of Income Supportclaims, many are likely to be recognised refugees or naturalised British citizens. For this next bit, the report explains: Table 5.11 presents data on sickness and disability benefit claims by country of birth. Thisincludes payments such as Incapacity Benefit and other benefits paid to people who areunable to work because of a long-term health problem or disability2. Proportion of population claiming sickness and disability benefits by country of birth 2005/06UK = 6% (of 53 million)compared with the highest 3 ... Kenya 8% (of 123,000) / Cyprus 9% (of 64,000) / Pakistan 10%. (of 300,000)The variations between country-of-birth groups in Table 5.11 are narrower than is the case forIncome Support, but there are still substantial differences. Polish-born people are unlikely tobe claiming any form of disability benefit, which reflects both their ineligibility for many ofthese benefits and the generally youthful nature of this group. Irish-born people, by contrast,with the highest average age of the groups studied in this report at 56 years, have a greatertendency to claim benefits available to people with a long-term sickness or disability. Othergroups with relatively high rates of disability include settled communities such as the Pakistaniand Cypriot born. In 2001, according to the Census, 30 per cent of Irish-born people inEngland and Wales had a limiting long-term illness (LLTI). Twenty-three per cent of thePakistani born and 25.3 per cent of the Cypriot-born had LLTIs. This compares with 18.2 percent of the UK-born population.3. Proportion of population claiming child benefit by country of birth 2005/06 UK = 14% (of 53 million)compared with the highest 3 ... Pakistan 29% / Bangladesh 33% / Somalia 40%. Because Child Benefit is available, obviously, to people with children, the proportion of eachcountry-of-birth group in receipt of this benefit is affected by the groups’ age and familystructures. The group with the highest proportion claiming Child Benefit is the Somali-born,who have an average age of 31 and are the youngest of the country-of-birth groups featuredhere. The second and third highest proportions are found in the Bangladeshi and Pakistaniborngroups, which tend to have larger family sizes than the national average. At the otherend of the spectrum, the American-born are the least likely to qualify for Child Benefit, Polishbornpeople are less likely to have families in the UK and are therefore unlikely to qualify, andthe high average age of the Irish-born means that a small proportion of this group havedependent children and again they are therefore unlikely to qualify. People born outside of theEEA who are claiming Child Benefit are likely to be naturalised British citizens.4. Proportion of population claiming unemployment-related benefits by country of birth 2005/06One of the primary public concerns around migration is the belief that immigrants are a drainon the public purse, despite research evidence that suggests otherwise (Gott and Johnston2002, Sriskandarajah et al 2005). In the lead-up to EU enlargement in 2004, for example,much of the media attention was focused on the possibility of migrants from the new memberstates coming to the UK solely to claim benefits. Even post-enlargement, there have beenclaims that these migrants are a drain on the public purse, with the Daily Express claimingthat they are ‘costing the taxpayer £77 million a year’ (Whitehead 2007)UK = 1%compared to the highest 3 ... Bangladesh 5% / Somalia 5% / Iran 5%.The table reveals that even where there is a relatively high level of unemployment amongsome groups, the proportion of people who claim unemployment-related benefits is very low.For example, while 4 per cent of the Polish and South African-born populations areunemployed, the proportion of those populations claiming unemployment benefits rounds tozero. This is likely to be because of ineligibility for benefits, whereas some of the groups withhigher proportions claiming unemployment benefits are likely to be naturalised British citizens. To be clear.....red bits are mine, italic bits are those omitted by Marton in presenting the stats Edit: Yes, it's the report Cathy published the link to while I was having fun doing this. Let's ban the Irish, I say (JOKINGLY!!) [/quote] Figures figures figures......the whole point is its money being given to those who have not contributed sufficiently (if anything) to take it out. I came to France expecting no funding from France, indeed we had to sign a declaration stipulating that. Would the masses have stayed if they had been asked to do the same? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Thank you Betty for taking the time and trouble to debunk this posting with actual figures. I knew when I made my earlier posting that the percentages being quoted were there just to give the impression to the unwary that the UK is full of scrounging immigrants but you've proven with facts that this isn't the case.There've been several postings on several topics recently where statements are being made but when the poster has been asked to provide sources/facts the request is simply ignored or at best huffed and puffed over by further generalisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Maybe this is more your style, eh Panda?http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/974805/ShowPost.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Huh??You can call me dim, if I can call you Betty but ummm nooooo, I like a good row, anyone fancy a quicky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="Marton"]Figures figures figures......the whole point is its money being given to those who have not contributed sufficiently (if anything) to take it out. I came to France expecting no funding from France, indeed we had to sign a declaration stipulating that. Would the masses have stayed if they had been asked to do the same? I think not.[/quote] Oh, so now they don't suit YOUR argument, they're "figures, figures, figures"??? ROFLAPMP[:D][:D] What an absolute joke!!! Well done, Marton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Figures figures figures......the whole point is its money being given to those who have not contributed sufficiently (if anything) to take it out. What a huge sweeping assumption !Have you ever heard that expression (where's Dick Smith when you need him ?) never assume, it makes an ass out of u and me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Figures figures figures......the whole point is its money being givento those who have not contributed sufficiently (if anything) to take itout. I came to France expecting no funding from France, indeed we hadto sign a declaration stipulating that. Would the masses have stayedif they had been asked to do the same? I think not.So are you trying to say that we masses were quite unaware that when we came to France that we'd actually have to pay taxes and other social charges as required by French legislation at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 You yourself were happy to quote those "statistics" when they seemed to justify your agenda...[quote user="Marton"]Why do these people head for the UK, the above speaks for itself. [/quote]but now you rubbish them when the full text makes it clear that they do not?[quote user="Marton"] Figures, figures, figures. [/quote]You really can't have it both ways.EDIT: my post crossed with several others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memb Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Marton"] Figures figures figures......the whole point is its money being given to those who have not contributed sufficiently (if anything) to take it out. I came to France expecting no funding from France, indeed we had to sign a declaration stipulating that. Would the masses have stayed if they had been asked to do the same? I think not.[/quote] Oh, so now they don't suit YOUR argument, they're "figures, figures, figures"??? ROFLAPMP[:D][:D] What an absolute joke!!! Well done, Marton.[/quote]What an absolute joke you are! You astound me!! You think I'm going to replicate your figures when the IPPR has set them out so clearly. Get a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Move along the wall please, make space for others. [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memb Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="Cat"]You yourself were happy to quote those "statistics" when they seemed to justify your agenda...[quote user="Marton"]Why do these people head for the UK, the above speaks for itself. [/quote]but now you rubbish them when the full text makes it clear that they do not?[quote user="Marton"] Figures, figures, figures. [/quote]You really can't have it both ways.[/quote]I did'nt rubbish them at all. I was quoting figures figures figures simply because I could'nt be bothered to replicate what had just been written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakbri Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 ClarkkentThanks for the reply. I agree newspapers only report the less desireable areas of life, they would get few sales if their headline read " Mrs Miggins cat went outside today, and came back with a mouse" As I said I have no recent hands on experience in the UK, so my information can only come from the very people who are hell bent on making the UK look bad.Yob culture may have its roots in medievel history, but the Romans marched across Europe and destroyed everything in their path, however I have spent hundreds of evenings out in Italy, from Milan to Rome to Catania and never seen a single fight. When I go out in my home town I wouldn't expect to get past 9pm before I saw the first punch up. How can the Italians leave behind their warrior roots so successfully. I am not talking here of football violence, which falls into a separate category.My view of the rail system comes from a few bad experiences. I once travelled from Lyon to Paris in 2 hours, then onto London in another 2 hours or so, then to Aberdeen in something like 9 hours if my memory serves me right. It may have been a 1 off, again the rest comes from the press.I apologise if my view is incorrect, when you read that schools are changing old habits to suit Muslims you tend to believe it, just as you do when you read that a baying mob of thousands chant for a teacher to be beheaded for the henious crime of allowing a 5 year old to call his teddy Mohammed, or a Saudi court sentences a girl to 200 lashes for the crime of being gang raped. There will always be inaccuracies, and without first hand experiences you can only make a judgement on the information you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think Marton needs to go back to the report to check (as I suggested earlier) the figures which also indicate that in the UK, British-Born British people (or WASPS, for the want of a better description) rank (and I do mean rank, because that's how the table is laid out, not by population size) only 14th, behind (among others) Ugandans, Kenyans and Jamaicans, and only one place above Nigerians, in terms of the weekly levels of Tax and NI that they pay. [:D] That means that in the UK, there are people of 13 different nationalities who pay more tax and NI per week than the average Brit. And by the way, that's 14th out of 26!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="Marton"]What an absolute joke you are! You astound me!! You think I'm going to replicate your figures when the IPPR has set them out so clearly. Get a life.[/quote] Is it me, folks, or has Marton suddenly started speaking Serbo-Croat??? [:D][:D] If they set them out "so clearly" Marton, why did you make such a hash of replicating them properly in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="You can call me Betty"]Maybe this is more your style, eh Panda?http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/974805/ShowPost.aspx[/quote][quote user="Panda "]Huh??You can call me dim, if I can call you Betty but ummm nooooo, I like a good row, anyone fancy a quicky?[/quote]Still sat here thinking Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="LanguedocGal"]...Marton, do you understand these Stats? If so could you explain them to prove that you do? You may think that they support your anti immigrant ''freeloader'' argument, but when you really understand them, they don't. We've seen them before. [/quote] Indeed we have, again, courtesy of Marton.http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1/1053069/ShowPost.aspx#1053069On that occasion it was Hagar who pointed out the problems with them, but his post was ignored/fell on deaf ears...[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="Marton"] Figures figures figures......the whole point is its money being given to those who have not contributed sufficiently (if anything) to take it out. I came to France expecting no funding from France, indeed we had to sign a declaration stipulating that. Would the masses have stayed if they had been asked to do the same? I think not.[/quote]Do you ever actually read anything with an open mind, Marton, or only through a lens tightly focussed on finding the bits which support your existing prejudices? Figures are fine, I guess, when they support what you are saying, but obviously something to be dismissed when they show the actual situation. [:(]The whole point of the benefits system is that you can't get anything if you're not entitled to it. The populations covered in this report are legal migrants to the UK. Illegal immigrants can't claim because if they tried it would be found that they have no right to be in the country and therefore no right to claim. Legal migrants have by and large the same rights as the native-born population, which, to my mind at least, is as it should be in a fair and democratic society. Most of the benefits to which you refer are only available to those who are working now or have worked in the past long enough to qualify. Many parts of the British economy would be in serious trouble if it weren't for migrant workers. When we moved to Oxfordshire 4 years ago the only NHS dental practice which was accepting new patients was entirely staffed by young, highly-skilled (and very good-looking [:D]) Greek dentists, who were working in the UK for a few years to improve their English. When we moved back to Mid-Wales last May we found that our former NHS dental practice had gone private and again the only NHS practice accepting patients is staffed by migrant workers, this time Polish. Thank goodness for migrant workers willing to work at NHS rates instead of heading for the more lucrative pastures of private practice like our expensively-trained British-born dentists...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakbri Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 KathyFExcuse my ignorance but you imply that illegal immigrants receive nothing, how do they survive? I can't imagine lasting more than a couple of days in the UK with no money or accommodation.I know the media lie, but all the people you see massing in Calias, what are they coming for if they will receive nothing? Have they been misinformed? It was probably the British press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacqui Too Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="Panda "] [quote user="You can call me Betty"]Maybe this is more your style, eh Panda?http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/974805/ShowPost.aspx[/quote][quote user="Panda "]Huh??You can call me dim, if I can call you Betty but ummm nooooo, I like a good row, anyone fancy a quicky?[/quote]Still sat here thinking Huh?[/quote]Poor Panda I think you just managed to to get hit by a bit of flying debris in the crossfire [:-))]Better to sit this one out and leave it to the big boys/girls [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 The goverment has [some time ago]opened its arms for all to enter without looking to see if there is any toom left at the Inn.How can they accomodate so many people from so many varying cultures without the means do support it.All types of criminals enter Uk`slipping through to take whatever they can find.The Uk is easy pickings...the goverment is some what careless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memb Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 ....."That means that in the UK, there are people of 13 different nationalities" which kind of takes us back to the original title of this thread MadMad UK and my statement that the island is too small to take them all. I will now continue the care and concern for that relative in hospital after the mugging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 sorry about the repetition...computor error..promise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I suspect (although I don't have the statistics to back this up so you may shoot me down in flames if you can) that drugs and alcohol abuse are a more significant cause of violence and "yob culture" than the multicultural nature of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote user="Marton"]....."That means that in the UK, there are people of 13 different nationalities" which kind of takes us back to the original title of this thread MadMad UK and my statement that the island is too small to take them all. I will now continue the care and concern for that relative in hospital after the mugging.[/quote]And??There were 12 different nationalities in my class at Uni here in France (shock [blink]) and it made for lots of interesting debates...Now where are we with that wall Benjamin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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