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[quote user="Bugbear"]

At the end of the day does it really matter,

[/quote]

 

Manifestly not, to you. Luckily, this isn't the only thread on the forum, Bugbear, so no need to detain yourself here too long if you'd rather be somewhere else.

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[quote user="oakbri"]

Sorry Betty I didn't know I had to be a churchgoer to celebrate Christmas. I think I am going to get a wall, it seems to be the thing to do when someone disagrees with you. Does anyone know a forum where adults can debate a subject, no matter how different their take on it is to your own, without getting into a huff.

[/quote]

 

Who's in a huff? Perhaps Christmas has a different meaning to you, oakbri. My understanding of the whole Christmas thing (and if it's of no relevance, then neither is Islam, which seems to have figured large in the debate) is that it's a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. It seems to me, therefore, entirely logical that if you are so fervently intent on celebrating the birth of Christ, you must have some belief in the reason you're doing it. If the whole nativity play thing is merely just another form of glorified Christmas Panto, then why not just let schools put on a Christmas panto. Or is there another possible interpretation of what you've just said that's so deep I've missed it?

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

Manifestly not, to you. Luckily, this isn't the only thread on the forum, Bugbear, so no need to detain yourself here too long if you'd rather be somewhere else.

[/quote]

Well that comment just reinforces my point entirely.

Enjoy............................

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As a practicing atheist, it seems to me that one should be allowed to worship one's deity in whatever way one wishes, just as I am entitled to believe that there is no such thing.  If some schools have a significantly larger number of non-christian pupils than others, why shouldn't they have a different kind of celebration?  I have no idea what is wrong with that.  Just so long as nobody is forced to participate, who cares? If christians want to put on a nativity play, why don't they do it in their church, where it clearly belongs?  Personally, if I had ever had children, it would have seriously got up my nose if they'd been encouraged to participate in religious rituals, when they are too young to consider the implications of what is being taught as "fact" and thus cannot weigh the evidence for themselves.
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[quote user="Bugbear"]At the end of the day does it really matter, surely it's all about how an individual sees a particular situation. T[/quote]

No, it isn't. On here, it's about people posting stuff, wildly exaggerated claims which reflect badly on minority groups in society, and not providing the slightest scrap of evidence to back up their claims..

These posters will never, ever, show me the law that has banned Nativity Plays, Gollys, Christmas Carols Singers, in fact Christmas...they will never, ever,  show me the Governments role in 'yielding' to the 'demands' of Muslims, of policies which 'throw away' or in other ways try to 'get rid of' our heritage.

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[quote user="Tresco"]

No, it isn't. On here, it's about people posting stuff, wildly exaggerated claims which reflect badly on minority groups in society, and not providing the slightest scrap of evidence to back up their claims..

These posters will never, ever, show me the law that has banned Nativity Plays, Gollys, Christmas Carols Singers, in fact Christmas...they will never, ever,  show me the Governments role in 'yielding' to the 'demands' of Muslims, of policies which 'throw away' or in other ways try to 'get rid of' our heritage.
[/quote]

Carry on then Tresco,  and when you all reach a mutually agreed conclusion,  I'll be the first to apologise.

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Betty, you were not the one in the huff. Others tend to print pictures of walls when they no have a valid point. I try to treat it as I would a petulant child, but it does get up my nose. Sorry that comment wasn't for you.

With regard to Christmas, yes it is a Christian celebration, even if it has its roots in paganism. The point for me is that the UK is, or was, a christian country, the head of state is also the head of the church, a christian church. Therefore why do any of out traditions have to be changed, they have been perfectly good for hundreds of years, what is suddenly wrong with them.

I was brought up a catholic, but I am not practising, my wife is orthodox. My christmas is december 25th, hers is january 7th. I wanted a tree in mid december even though she wanted it on december 31st. I wanted to take it down on january 5th, she wants it up till the end of january. So we get a tree up for a lot longer than anyone else, we don't change my traditions or hers. So why is it I read about nativities cancelled, wording changed. It is possible to just celebrate it all.

The reason it got referred to Islam is that the press have focussed in on Muslims being offended on quite a regular basis, but I am sure the buddist fundamentalists are just as vocal.

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[quote user="Bugbear"]...Carry on then Tresco,  and when you all reach a mutually agreed conclusion,  I'll be the first to apologise.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that because their is little chance that everyone will agree, we should all stop talking?

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I dont think there is a law as in written down in black and white, but it is filtering down from up high some how, caused by do gooders and people who are to scared to make a right decision in case some one is offended, I thought an awlful lot of what I was hearing was hear say, jokes, urban myths, until last summer our local school( infant /juniors) sent out in the news letter that children would not be allowed to sing baa baa black sheep and more and the word black was to be replaced by pink, and they were asking parents if they were going to teach there children this song could they teach them the word Pink. which is utter nonsence, im sorry but if any one takes offence to such a song, I to would be the first to tell them to go some where else. there is a lot of this kind of nonsence going on, and I can see why its causing problems between different groups of people. No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way.            
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[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="Bugbear"]At the end of the day does it really matter, surely it's all about how an individual sees a particular situation. T[/quote]

No, it isn't. On here, it's about people posting stuff, wildly exaggerated claims which reflect badly on minority groups in society, and not providing the slightest scrap of evidence to back up their claims..

These posters will never, ever, show me the law that has banned Nativity Plays, Gollys, Christmas Carols Singers, in fact Christmas...they will never, ever,  show me the Governments role in 'yielding' to the 'demands' of Muslims, of policies which 'throw away' or in other ways try to 'get rid of' our heritage.
[/quote]

Tresco

Friday June 10, 2005
The Guardian

"A mandate is a wonderful thing, even if this government's rests on just 22% of the electorate. A bad bill already twice rejected with a big rebellion on Labour benches was tabled again yesterday, regardless of the strength of opposition to it. The incitement to religious hatred bill is back, although it lost the argument resoundingly on every other outing. Forward not back? No, back for the third time.

Why? To appease a Muslim vote that elected George Galloway in Bethnal Green and gave a fright to several other MPs. It is an appeasing gesture strongly lobbied for by the mainstream Muslim Council of Britain. But its unintended consequences will stir up exactly the religious hatred it seeks to assuage."

Most of the things you list can be found by a simple google search.

I am sure everyone remembers the storekeeper raided by police for selling golliwogs. The charges were finally dropped in the face of massive public pressure. But what were the police doing with this in the first place.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

Among the huge number of righteously indignant people on this thread protesting in the strongest possible terms about the erosion of British society evidenced by the lack of school nativity plays, how many of you are in fact practising Christians and regular churchgoers? Because unless it actually means enough to you to actually maintain it, then regrettably you've only got yourselves to blame when it disappears. The Government doesn't make you go to church, or prevent you from doing so. It's a matter for you, your conscience and your personal choice. If you want to defend your right to a set of traditions based on traditional Christian values, then what about the other 364 days a year when you could be upholding them? [/quote]

I can't answer for anyone else, Betty, but as a retired parish priest and an active Christian for the last 30-odd years, I see no evidence of the disappearance of nativity plays and have already said so. My middle grandson was a star in his KS1 nativity play last term and the elder has been in similar plays in the past.  From my experience as somone who for some years went regularly into primary schools to do assemblies and attend Christmas productions, as well as being a foundation governor at the local C of E school in my last parish, many schools tend to alternate a more or les traditional nativity one year and a more secular Christmas production such as "Scrooge" the next. Alternatively others get the "infants" (KS1) children to do a nativity while the older children do a play or a musical.  Given that a substantial minorityof primary schools are C of E schools, I doubt there is any need to fear for the disappearance of the traditional nativity play. However, given also that nativity plays can unfortunately give the impression that the Christmas (and therefore Christian) story is only for children young enough to be made to wear angel wings and tea-towel head-dresses, perhaps I shouldn't be so upbeat about their survival.....[8-)]

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[quote user="Pads"]I dont think there is a law as in written down in black and white, but it is filtering down from up high some how, caused by do gooders and people who are to scared to make a right decision in case some one is offended, I thought an awlful lot of what I was hearing was hear say, jokes, urban myths, until last summer our local school( infant /juniors) sent out in the news letter that children would not be allowed to sing baa baa black sheep and more and the word black was to be replaced by pink, and they were asking parents if they were going to teach there children this song could they teach them the word Pink. which is utter nonsence, im sorry but if any one takes offence to such a song, I to would be the first to tell them to go some where else. there is a lot of this kind of nonsence going on, and I can see why its causing problems between different groups of people. No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way.            [/quote]

Well said Pads

The fact is, that black sheep do actually exist, so children can at least relate to it. Anyone ever seen a pink sheep? Are you sure it won't offend the gay community?

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[quote user="oakbri"]

The reason it got referred to Islam is that the press have focussed in on Muslims being offended on quite a regular basis, but I am sure the buddist fundamentalists are just as vocal.

[/quote]

As you say, the PRESS say that Muslims have been offended, but that doesn't represent the majority of Muslims, just the odd radical cleric out to cause some aggro talking to a reporter wanting a sensational story!

Buddhists (of which I'm one), like true Muslims,  respect other peoples choice of religion and wouldn't dream of being "vocal". 

 

Have a peaceful New Year!

Aly 

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Charlotte

I wasn't having a go at Buddhists, quite the opposite in fact, I was just being ironic. And while I don't doubt that muslims are peaceful, when the press show a mob of thousands, with machettes, descending on the British embassy in Khartoum it doesn't look to me like a few radical clerics, it looked like a mob of thousands, then again the BBC could have used camera trickery.

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[quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="Bugbear"]Read my post, in full.............................[/quote]
I did. Twice.
[/quote]

Well if you didn't understand what I said, I don't think I can help you further.

[/quote]

 

LOL! I can't think of anyone who needs help from you less, Bugbear.

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[quote user="Charlotte3"]...I'm sure I heard that the history of WW2 and our role in it was no longer to be taught in English schools, but I would be really happy to be told otherwise![/quote]

Ooops sorry Aly, I missed your post.

I know that their was some discussion a year or two ago about the secondary History syllabus being a bit top heavy with Nazis/WW2.

There was no mention of 'dropping' WW2 though.

Edit: We can't say N azis???

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