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Of course the anti-liberal tabloid press and their readers will pounce on these examples of rather insignificant local decisions made by somebody who is almost certainly under delusions about their importance. That doesn't make the acts of a few idiots representative of a whole nation, its government, and its laws, as many would have us believe.

Just as the majority of non-Muslims (and quite a few within the faith) seem to forget that the Islamic faith is based on tolerance. It preaches equal love for all, equal respect for all, and equal faith in all. Yes, it also speaks of fighting to defend the faith - but in defence only, where faith is oppressed. Islamic aggressors are no more true Muslims than I am.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="Bugbear"]Read my post, in full.............................[/quote]
I did. Twice.
[/quote]

Well if you didn't understand what I said, I don't think I can help you further.

[/quote]

 

LOL! I can't think of anyone who needs help from you less, Bugbear.

[/quote]

Funny, thats just what everyone was telling me about you......................[:)]

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"I'm sure I heard that the history of WW2 and our role in it was no longer to be taught in English schools, but I would be really happy to be told otherwise!"

Perhaps you did, but this demonstrates the necessity of citing your sources. Both world wars are on the GCSE curriculum. My eight year old grand daughter has already 'done' World War 2 in primary school. This is the same primary school where one of her classmates, Mohammed, played the part of a sheep in the nativity play. His parents were in the audience applauding mightily.

Hoddy
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Consider yourself told otherwise Aly. It's still a key part of the syllabus for examination in 2009, which by definition means it's still being taught. I'd post a link but it's to a pdf file so won't work. Google GCSE History syllabus for yourself and you'll have an answer from the horse's mouth, which is better than relying on me (or Tresco, who I'm sure won't mind me saying so) for the facts.
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[quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Bugbear"]

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="Bugbear"]Read my post, in full.............................[/quote]
I did. Twice.
[/quote]

Well if you didn't understand what I said, I don't think I can help you further.

[/quote]

 

LOL! I can't think of anyone who needs help from you less, Bugbear.

[/quote]

Funny, thats just what everyone was telling me about you......................[:)]

 

Funny, funny man.

[/quote]
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Charlotte ?????????

No the protesters descended on the embassy because a teacher allowed a child to call a teddy Mohammed, strangely the protesters were muslims, you remember, the peace loving ones. My point was the press was being accused of making out that a couple of Mullahs represent all muslims, I was trying to show that while the press may exaggerate, I don't think they exaggerate that much, all the time. It wasn't a couple of mullahs in the Sudan, it really was a crowd of thousands.

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[quote user="oakbri"]Tresco

Friday June 10, 2005

The Guardian

"A mandate is a wonderful thing, even if this government's rests on just 22% of the electorate. A bad bill already twice rejected with a big rebellion on Labour benches was tabled again yesterday, regardless of the strength of opposition to it. The incitement to religious hatred bill is back, although it lost the argument resoundingly on every other outing. Forward not back? No, back for the third time.

Why? To appease a Muslim vote that elected George Galloway in Bethnal Green and gave a fright to several other MPs. It is an appeasing gesture strongly lobbied for by the mainstream Muslim Council of Britain. But its unintended consequences will stir up exactly the religious hatred it seeks to assuage."

Most of the things you list can be found by a simple google search.

I am sure everyone remembers the storekeeper raided by police for selling golliwogs. The charges were finally dropped in the face of massive public pressure. But what were the police doing with this in the first place.

[/quote]

Oakbri I'm sorry I missed your post too. The link you give leads to todays Guardian, (whereas the quote 2 years old) is from somewhere else...I will track it down though.[:)]

A simple google search in most cases leads to evidence of just how much many of these 'stories' are exaggerated, but that's beside the point. Why should I be the person who has to search for these 'stories' people come up with, time and time again, about Muslims forcing non muslims to do this, that and the other?  Why don't forum members quote their sources at the outset?

I have no idea what the police were doing, as there is no BAN on Gollys. Nasty things though.

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[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="Bugbear"]At the end of the day does it really matter, surely it's all about how an individual sees a particular situation. T[/quote]

No, it isn't. On here, it's about people posting stuff, wildly exaggerated claims which reflect badly on minority groups in society, and not providing the slightest scrap of evidence to back up their claims..

These posters will never, ever, show me the law that has banned Nativity Plays, Gollys, Christmas Carols Singers, in fact Christmas...they will never, ever,  show me the Governments role in 'yielding' to the 'demands' of Muslims, of policies which 'throw away' or in other ways try to 'get rid of' our heritage.
[/quote]

I never said there was any law, I said individual education authorities were banning depending on multi-cultural pupil levels.  Remember the issue of the B.A. worker who was stopped from wearing her necklace crucifix.  I suppose that did'nt happen either.   

  ........."Unfortunately for those seeking to blame Britain's migrant population, the student was Polish and the yobs were Brits, and it appeared that the crime for which he was being beaten up was being Polish. It's a funny old world, eh?"

I never said I was blaming Britain's migrant population for the mugging.    The subject of immigrants was entered into my post when I said systems were crashing because the island is too small and taking in too many people. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3136506.ece

........"I dont think there is a law as in written down in black and white, but it is filtering down from up high some how, caused by do gooders and people who are too scared to make a right decision in case some one is offended, I thought an awlful lot of what I was hearing was hear say, jokes, urban myths, until last summer our local school( infant /juniors) sent out in the news letter that children would not be allowed to sing baa baa black sheep and more and the word black was to be replaced by pink, and they were asking parents if they were going to teach there children this song could they teach them the word Pink. which is utter nonsence, im sorry but if any one takes offence to such a song, I to would be the first to tell them to go some where else. there is a lot of this kind of nonsence going on, and I can see why its causing problems between different groups of people. No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way."

Hear hear.    

The trouble with lots of posters on here is that you don't believe others are entitled to their opinions.     We all have one, and are entitled to it without the walls being posted.     It speaks volumes to me that only two people have commented on the mugging which has devastated our family.     Keep safe because my belief is what goes around, comes around.            

 

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A fascinating, although totally irrelevant insight into goings-on in the Sudan.  Weren't we discussing how the UK has been flushed so far down the pan that it may never recover? Now we're discussing muslims protesting in a muslim country!!! And it really was a crowd of thousands according to the press, I assume......or were you actually there? Sorry, oakbri, I don't mean to sound so abrupt, but this debate is once again going round in circles. For example, if we must discuss the fact that the majority of muslims are peace loving, then to be honest, even if there was a crowd of thousands protesting, in a muslim country with a population of over 39 million, a few thousand protesters only prove what's already been said numerous times: it's a vocal and unrepresentative minority[8-)]
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[quote user="Marton"]

The trouble with lots of posters on here is that you don't believe others are entitled to their opinions.     We all have one, and are entitled to it without the walls being posted.    [/quote]

 

You have every right to your opinion, Marton, just as everyone who has oppposed that opinion has a right to theirs. However, if you choose to twist statistics, manipulate documents and cherrypick spurious evidence to support your opinion, then it's only reasonable to expect that your use of this supposed "evidence" will be challenged.
It's not your opinion that I personally wish to challenge. If that's the opinion you want to hold, then fine. I will continue to challenge you, however, where you present unsubstantiated tabloid BS as justification for that opinion. Because it's my opinion that it is wrong to allow misinformation to be disseminated in the guise of "facts".

 

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In the end it comes down to the fact that most people will believe what they want to believe regardless of facts.

Fascinating debate guys, I can only take a gleg now and then as i've got loadsa work, but it's interesting to follow it.[:D]

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"No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way."

 

Exactly what happenned with the teddy bear.....silly woman!  She was very lucky.

Aly

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]A fascinating, although totally irrelevant insight into goings-on in the Sudan.  Weren't we discussing how the UK has been flushed so far down the pan that it may never recover? Now we're discussing muslims protesting in a muslim country!!! And it really was a crowd of thousands according to the press, I assume......or were you actually there? Sorry, oakbri, I don't mean to sound so abrupt, but this debate is once again going round in circles. For example, if we must discuss the fact that the majority of muslims are peace loving, then to be honest, even if there was a crowd of thousands protesting, in a muslim country with a population of over 39 million, a few thousand protesters only prove what's already been said numerous times: it's a vocal and unrepresentative minority[8-)][/quote]

Sorry Betty, the Sudan thing came up in an earlier post, it is very hard to stay specifically on the original post on a topic which is obviously important to a lot of people.

Yes a few thousand protesters in a country of 39 million is very few, as it has been said before statistics lie. For example how many of that 39 million actually had the possibility to be at the embassy that day, given it is a vast country with little or no public transport, few privately owned cars etc, suddenly the numbers change significantly, that is the problem with statistics.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Marton"]

The trouble with lots of posters on here is that you don't believe others are entitled to their opinions.     We all have one, and are entitled to it without the walls being posted.    [/quote]

 

You have every right to your opinion, Marton, just as everyone who has oppposed that opinion has a right to theirs. However, if you choose to twist statistics, manipulate documents and cherrypick spurious evidence to support your opinion, then it's only reasonable to expect that your use of this supposed "evidence" will be challenged.
It's not your opinion that I personally wish to challenge. If that's the opinion you want to hold, then fine. I will continue to challenge you, however, where you present unsubstantiated tabloid BS as justification for that opinion. Because it's my opinion that it is wrong to allow misinformation to be disseminated in the guise of "facts".

 

[/quote]

Ok depend on Tresco - he/she googles everything.      Open your eyes and get the blinkers off you may see some facts for yourself.

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[quote user="Charlotte3"]

"No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way."

 

Exactly what happenned with the teddy bear.....silly woman!  She was very lucky.

Aly

[/quote]

Sorry Charlotte are just saying she deserved it? You don't think the religion of peace over reacted? As it transpired it was the kids who named the bear, muslim kids, the teacher had nothing to do with it. It also transpired it was started by a vindictive email from a secretary, knowing the teacher had no knowledge of the problems it could cause.

Had that teacher been working in say Dublin and the kids called a teddy moses do you think there would have been a crowd baying for her blood? Thought not. How about if she was in Tel Aviv, angry jews wanting to cut her head off,,,,, doubtful. So why in Sudan ??

 

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[quote user="Charlotte3"]

"No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way."

 

Exactly what happenned with the teddy bear.....silly woman!  She was very lucky.

Aly

[/quote]

Well, that's a very fair point. It wouldn't have taken her a great deal of research to discover that this was a grave taboo. A bit like deficating in the streets might be in London, but in Khartoum I can atest that happens a great deal. Would that be worth 15 days in jug in the UK? I think it might. Does English law accept ignorance as a defence? No.

Khartoum I recall (the tourist office was closed so I couldn't get any brochures you understand) has a population of over 8 million. A few thousand out of 8 million? A bit like the aftermarth of a Millwall home game in the 70s then.

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[quote user="Marton"]

Ok depend on Tresco - he/she googles everything.      Open your eyes and get the blinkers off you may see some facts for yourself.

[/quote]

 

You seem to have reverted to Serbo-Croat again there, Marton.  However, to respond to what I think you're saying: I, too can google stuff. It's really simple. You should perhaps try it yourself  in order to glean some factually accurate information about some of these issues that concern you.

As for my eyes, and the blinkers thing: perhaps you'd like to explain to me exactly how you think I may be blinkered? I mean, living in the UK and actually being part of what goes on on a daily basis can't possibly be any substitute for reading about it on the internet from the safety of France, can it? And I wouldn't expect that working on a full-time basis with foreign nationals from all countries living and working in the UK would give me any sort of insight into them or their circumstances at all, now would it? Deary me.

 

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Betty, a few thousand from 39 million is a massive difference to a few thousand from 2.2 million. Again, in a huge city like Khartoum with little infrastucture or transport options, the actual percentage is impossible to calculate. But anyway we are now way off topic.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Marton"]

Ok depend on Tresco - he/she googles everything.      Open your eyes and get the blinkers off you may see some facts for yourself.

[/quote]

 

You seem to have reverted to Serbo-Croat again there, Marton.  However, to respond to what I think you're saying: I, too can google stuff. It's really simple. You should perhaps try it yourself  in order to glean some factually accurate information about some of these issues that concern you.

As for my eyes, and the blinkers thing: perhaps you'd like to explain to me exactly how you think I may be blinkered? I mean, living in the UK and actually being part of what goes on on a daily basis can't possibly be any substitute for reading about it on the internet from the safety of France, can it? And I wouldn't expect that working on a full-time basis with foreign nationals from all countries living and working in the UK would give me any sort of insight into them or their circumstances at all, now would it? Deary me.

 

[/quote]

Its your choice to be on Living France forum.     Deary me you believe we hear things via jungle drums or maybe Tasmanian bongo's.   

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[quote user="Marton"]I never said there was any law, I said individual education authorities were banning depending on multi-cultural pupil levels. [/quote]

Yes you did, and they as far as I can make out no Education Authority has done so.  You certainly didn't provide any evidence to suggest a EA had done so, and neither has anyone else.

You also asserted that 'All went downhill after we give way for the banning of the golliwogs' when Gollys never were Banned.

You then went on to post some statistics which purported to demonstrate that most immigrants to UK were a load of freeloaders, and which consequently were shown to have demonstrated...the opposite, if anything.

[quote user="Marton"]...Remember the issue of the B.A. worker who was stopped from wearing her necklace crucifix.  I suppose that did'nt happen either.   [/quote] (My bold).

No it didn't. She wasn't stopped from wearing it, she was stopped from wearing it on display. She works for BA if I recall correctly, and would have had the same reaction to a nose ring. The Prime Minister stated his objections...everyone did...but BA stuck to their guns, as the visible display of a crucifix is not a requirmement for Christans.

Your final comment has to be one of the cheapest shots ever made on this forum. Do you seriously think you are the only forum member whose family has been affected by devastating events recently?

As for your 'what goes around comes around' goes, it is beneath contempt to suggest that people who disagree with you here on these issues would not sympathise with your familys' distress, or worse, that by not doing so publicly, ill may befall them.

 

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oakbri,

Because in Islam, it is FORBIDDEN to take the name of the Prophet in vain. No ifs ands or buts, and as an educated woman going to work in a Muslim country she should have had enough sense to follow Islamic laws.

Dublin....Moses?  I'm not sure about calling a bear JESUS (Moses isn't an equivalent)  in Tel Aviv though, although I don't know if that is forbidden under Yiddish law....it probably is (but perhaps not Israeli law).

As I said, according to Muslim law it is forbidden to take the name of the Prophet in vain. It is also forbidden in the bible to take God's name in vain, something which many "christians" have forgotten. Luckily for them it isn't written into the laws of our country!!!

The point of it is that she disobeyed the law and was very lucky that she was British, otherwise she would have been a lot worse off. The Sudanese have the absolute right to uphold their laws, as we have ours.

The kids were seven years old, under the supervision of their teacher who, quite frankly, should have had "knowledge of the problems it would cause".

"No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way."

Or does that just apply to foreigners living in good old blighty?

Aly

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[quote user="Marton"]

Its your choice to be on Living France forum.     Deary me you believe we hear things via jungle drums or maybe Tasmanian bongo's.   

[/quote]

 

Oh, gosh, it's Living France[:-))] Silly, silly me. I thought it was all about living in the UK and how terrible that was. I never realised that people like you might actually want to come here and talk about France!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't we do that, then? Let's talk about France. It'd make a refreshing change, and be so much more in keeping with the name. Although it'd probably put the kybosh on you slagging off the UK somewhat. D'you want to start? In French, if you want, too. Lead on.

 

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