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Burqa ban under discussion


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I can't admit that a symbol of fundamentalism, oppression, the attack to human dignity that the Burqa represents could be admitted in the streets of France and in our public space.

it is contrary to our values so I think the government is right to create a law agains it .

Moreover , it could be dangerous ( cf Quillan's posting).

I rarely agree with Mr Sarkozy, but in this partcular instance, I must admit I do.

 

 

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And you know Frenchie that I respect you very much and really value your friendship - so I hope we will agree to disagree. I hate the Burka and all it represents too - but as I've said, banning it will only entrench and radicalise- and make things worse, I feel.

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It is often hard and in the short term it can seem counter productive to take strong steps against behaviour that the majority finds unacceptable, but just because it is difficult to act against those with vested interests it does not mean that action should not be taken, otherwise we would still be sending children up chimneys and down mines while getting our slaves to work our country estates.

Chris

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I do not understand why people are scared of Muslims and want to stop some of them dressing how they want. Perhaps these people should be more worried about the loss of so called Christian principals in Europe.

Who saw the UK vicar this week on UK TV taking a trip without money? Perhaps half of the people that fed him were Muslims.

I think Europians should take a little time and get to know their neighbours better - love the people in Burqas - buy a drink for the bearded Muslim - they are sapiens just like you and me.

I find it incredible that my father still has doubts about the Turkish and Muslims dating back to the Ottaman Empire.

I will be in Leicester next week and will spend time with some 'ninja warriors' and eat well with them.

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How much better things are in the UK !!  - or maybe just slight signs of some common sense.

Was watching a BBC news report yesterday lunch-time;  reporters interviewing some of the new MPs on their 'first day' in Westminster.

Two new MPs interviewed - one male, white, young (wet behind the ears but never mind);  second person interviewed - and introduced as - a MUSLIM woman MP - and she was NOT WEARING A HEADSCARF OR A BURKA - Nothing on her head.

So where's all this 'part of their religion' nonsense I wonder.   Here's a good example of a young Muslim woman becoming a part of our British democracy - and dressed exactly like every other normal British woman;  in fact I think her skirt was knee-length, not even long.

If this Muslim woman can do this - why the b----y hell can't all the others - and stop expecting everyone to make 'allowances' for something that is no more than a medieval outfit, suitable only for wearing in the sands of the desert - for which it was designed - and not the paved streets of any Western Christian modern country.

And as any sociologist/psychologist/behaviouralist will explain - there is something very off putting in trying to make normal conversation, and read facial expressions - when the person you are inter-acting with has their face covered, and you are unable to 'pick up' the normal subliminal facial movements.  

It IS a means of cutting oneself off from normal human inter-action - and says a great deal about the attitude of the people who choose to dress like this.

As I've pointed out above - if a new UK Member of Parliament - a Muslim Woman - does not feel the need for a headscarf or a burka - then we should take the line that it is unsuitable for a modern country with a modern outlook which respects the rights of women...and where the Burka is an offensive reminder of the subjugation of women and the medieval attitudes of the men who wish to enforce the Burka.

Make it clear that wearing of this medieval form of clothing is not acceptable in a modern 21st century culture;  and if they wish to practice their medieval way of life then perhaps they should return to the land of their ancestors.

Chessie

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You may have noticed or not perhaps that many Christian MP's do not wear full clerical gear or Nuns habits?

I think we should be more worried about the secretive apron wearers -  they are a bigger terrorist, economic and social threat to society.

 

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[quote user="Dog"]

You may have noticed or not perhaps that many Christian MP's do not wear full clerical gear or Nuns habits?[/quote]

Strange place you live in, Planet Dog: obviously some unknown supra-force field skews perspective reality.

Perhaps the core reason Christian MPs don't wear "Full Clerical Gear" (Whatever that is) and/or "Nun's Habits" is because they are neither nor Vicars, Priests, Bishops, Monsignors, Cardinals etc.

Might this be the reason perhaps?

[quote]I think we should be more worried about the secretive apron wearers -  they are a bigger terrorist, economic and social threat to society. [/quote]

Facts, references, sources, proof and searchable citations, please.

Instead of a continuum of your apocryphal drivel.

 

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chessie - there are almost as many ways to be a Muslim and interpret the scriptures, as there ways of being Christian - In my last school I had hamish girls who wore a scarf and long skirts and white socks. Do you really feel that we have the right to impose on Christians or Muslims how and what to believe? Creatinonists, Evangelical, Jehovahs witnesses, could somebody please tell me how many different Christian Churches/sects are in existence. Even Anglican Church goes from sublime to ridiculous - some believing women are incapable of being priests, some that homosexuality is an abomination, some that the resurrection was symbolical. Catholics who believe that the bread and wine do literally turn into the body of Christ. But that is not the issue here - for me the question is 'will banning the Burqa help or hinder integration' - and for me the answer is that it will very probably make things worse.

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[quote user="Swissie"]chessie - there are almost as many ways to be a Muslim and interpret the scriptures[/quote]

Great: please point us to the Hadith which demands Muslim women cover their faces.................

You might just as well suggest "There are many different ways to be Jewish": and strictly Orthodox Hassidics demand when they marry, the women shave their head hair and thereafter wear a wing.

So presumably, you as a woman would be happy to shave your head and wear a wig if you married an Hassidic Jew then?

Integration: another total myth of Multiculturalism!

What damned integration???

Yes, it happens in minority: but not in majority: and that is the core problem and the Million Dollar Question!

The word "Integration" implies blending in to your host country: not demanding your host country (Which let's face it has been kind enough to let you come and stay!) changes its cultural mores to suit you!

Particularly when you are in such a minority.

 

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No I would not be happy to wear a Burka, nor to shave my Head. And in my generation and my parents', would not have been happy to be the chosen one in the family to become a Priest or a Nun, or to have an arranged marriage (very frequent amongst Catholics until recently, here in Switzerland where there were a minority - no longer thanks to Italian, Spanish and Portugese immigration post war). This is not the point - and I shall say this for the very last time - the point is: will banning the Burqa makes things worse, both for the women involved, and for French society at large?

I do believe that it is actually possible to integrate fully and be 'different' - having lived and taught in Leicester for over 30 years - I have known so many such cases, among my students, neighbours, friends and colleagues.  I agree, the burqa makes that very difficult. But again, this is NOT the point here, for me.

It actually makes me very cross when people use a wrong to excuse another wrong - as 2 wrongs very rarely make a right. However- it could be said that there are many British people in France who do not even speak the language- and expect their vets, solicitors, doctors, plumbers to speak English- even after years and years in the country.

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[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="Dog"]

You may have noticed or not perhaps that many Christian MP's do not wear full clerical gear or Nuns habits?[/quote]

Strange place you live in, Planet Dog: obviously some unknown supra-force field skews perspective reality.

Perhaps the core reason Christian MPs don't wear "Full Clerical Gear" (Whatever that is) and/or "Nun's Habits" is because they are neither nor Vicars, Priests, Bishops, Monsignors, Cardinals etc.

Might this be the reason perhaps?

[quote]I think we should be more worried about the secretive apron wearers -  they are a bigger terrorist, economic and social threat to society. [/quote]

Facts, references, sources, proof and searchable citations, please.

Instead of a continuum of your apocryphal drivel.

 

[/quote]

I think that those who revel in double negatives wouldn't understand facts. 

There are various search engines (if that's what you base facts on) and if you use them you may find what you are looking for.

It surprises me that you got so far in the Bible.

Is there a masonic edict against muslims wearing certain clothing as it seems they are the ones spitting most feathers?

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Swissie"]
I do believe that it is actually possible to integrate fully and be 'different' - having lived and taught in Leicester for over 30 years - I have known so many such cases, among my students, neighbours, friends and colleagues.  I agree, the burqa makes that very difficult. But again, this is NOT the point here, for me.[/quote]

And here is an excellent example of "Integration" at work in Leicester.............

Integration:

 

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Indeed, those blazers and caps, sheer cruelty.

IMHO there should be NO religious schools - the only reason the UK has had to accept Creationist and Islamic schools, is because many British want to segregate their students in CofE or Catholic schools. Get rid of the lot of them - and then also say no to fundamentalist Christian or indeed Islamic schools. Why is endoctrination by one faith accepted, and not from another?

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As another retired teacher I heartily endorse what you say Swissie. I would have thought we should have learned our lesson in Northern Ireland. As it is faith schools, particularly secondary ones, skew the education system in some towns very badly.

Hoddy
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You know Hoddy that I taught in a small town very near you, where there are 3 secondary school - 1 Catholic, 1 Grammar private and 1 Comprehensive- of course, the first 2 creamed off - and we in the Comprehensive were left with the rest, many Bengali students from very poor homes, kids from the local sink estates - and some from academic staff at the University. Had we stopped the Bengali girls from wearing a scarf (and they were mostly really hard working and terribly keen to do well)- they would have not come to school at all. By giving them a good education was the best way to help them.

The Islamic school mentioned in the article, is practically opposite a very traditional CofE Church. Many parents in that area often used the CofE school as a free 'prep' school, before sending them to the Private sector at 11. The school had CofE style assemblies and the Curriculum was taught from a definitely christian point of view. I know many parents who did all the "Christening and going to the local Church + fund raising, etc' palava, despite being totally agnostic/atheist,in order to get kids in that school. Many very good friends and colleagues. The other primary school took kids from poor UK homes, and the Asian kids + (as above) kids from university staff. The Muslim parents were therefore able to say ' what is good for the goose...' as they did not want their children to be with kids from difficult homes with values they definitely did not share.

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I don't care what prophet or pagan idol anybody wishes to worship or what clothes they wear, all I want is equality, after all do you think I would get away with wearing a face mask/balaclava in Heathrow or when going into a bank or government building? Or what  the reaction would be if I wore the same as I drive pass the cameras at the Channel Tunnel on my way into the customs area. Also why are Seiks allowed to go through customs with out removing their turbans? Please let's all have the same rules, rules that are set by the elected government for the benefit of the majority, not just for some minority religious ideology.
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[quote user="Swissie"]What does 'equality' mean - not easy to define. I certainly know many many young French people of Arab origin who would just love to have 'equality' - but they are defo not getting it.
[/quote]

In the context of my comment; equality is the issue of face masks, as I said, "I don't care what clothes people wear"  And I am not denying people need equality but that is another storey.

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To me it is all about the values of our Republic. Even if they are not respected in many instances, it is not a reason to accept anything.

It is a symbol of oppression, it denies women a right to go as they please, it is thje physical aspect of the fundamentalists ' doctrine and mustn't be accepted, as such.

No compromise.

I visited many muslim countries, in some of them it was not allowed to wear shorts or to smoke, and on their land, I accepted their rules.

Iam very attached to the values of the French Republic, and if we tolerate Burqas, then, what's next?

In my school, as in all schools in France, students respect the law, no veil, no crosses, no religious sign .

And I agree with that.

 

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Of course I would prefer the burqa not to be used, although I've never felt there was a problem with wearing a scarf. I have done some French Googling today- and found some really interesting stuff. You talk about ALL schools, Frenchie, but you seem to forget that there are many many private Catholic schools - mainly funded by the State. How can this be tolerated under the Principe de laicité? Strangely enough, those schools have become a refuge for Muslim girls, as they are usually single sex, and their faith is tolerated and respected there- and many allow them to wear traditional clothing, scarf or burqa. About 10% of girls in Catholic schools are now Muslim.

In my last school - I had a very good relationship with some of my Muslim 6th formers. None wore the burqa, but about 50% wore a scarf and modest clothing. They told me that they felt so sorry for the English girls from the local estates - who were dressed like tarts to please the boys. They felt those girls were oppressed and badly used - were constantly pressured by TV and magazines, to be slim, pretty, dress this way or that,  have such and such haircut, nails, etc., to drink, smoke and have sex. The Muslim girls actually felt empowered by being modest- they could concentrate on school work and doing their very best (and they did achieve incredibly, some with Bengali illiterate parents).  When I was last in Leicester a few weeks ago, I bumped into one of them in town. She looked beautiful, still wearing a scarf, but in jeans and a lacy cotton top- with light make up. She was blooming - we went for coffee and she told me she was a social worker, working with the elderly asian community. Had she been stopped from wearing a scarf, she probably would have left school and be married off.  As it happens, she is managing to achieve the balance, between being respectful of her faitth and tradition, AND being absolutely and totally well integrated. It is possible - especially if you leave well alone with superficial things like that. Make female circumcision (and male) totally illegal (unless medically required for males for a specific problem) - absolutely and no compromise.

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