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Interesting, if predictable views on this thread. I firmly believe that, certainly in the UK, racism grew dramatically at the exact same time that legislation was introduced telling the populous that it was against the law to express anything that could be seen as racist.

Has it worked, no, of course it hasn't, it just succeeded in turning a nation of very tolerant people into something much worse.
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Have been following this thread with profound interest, not the least because our inbox seems to be bombarded each day with new and interesting comments. Also, have wanted to add my two-pennyworth since first submitting a humble addition a while ago.

We have lived all over the world, including South Africa during Apartheid years [enough said about that] but the very worst racialism we ever encountered in an overt manner was in a corner of the Antipodes which should obviously remain nameless. After 11 years in SA, we arrived there and were utterly shocked at the outspoken racialism amongst the population. Perhaps it has become better over the years? This is just our experience, and may differ from others'.

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If you're refering to the place, I think you're refering to, without mentioning the name..............then I 100% concur. One of my crew, in my pro-yotting days, was mixed race. Every time we went to that place we always kept him on a very short leash, as he was a bit prone to punching the locals. At 2m tall and 110kg he could look after himself, but it wasn't a good image for the corporate sponsers.

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[quote user="Chancer"]

Of course not everybody is and I do find that education, travel and exposure to other cultures broadens peoples minds and horizons but overt racism is the norm and accepted as such around me.

[/quote]

I agree with you completely on that one.  We have been shocked, in rural France, at quite how parochial and narrow-minded many of the residents are.  A significant proportion have not travelled beyond the department they live in - and have no desire to do so.  Our neighbour is quite dismissive when we visit any place that is more than 30km from us.  We get a 'Pah! That's in the Lot / Correze / Haute Vienne...  Why do you want to go there?'  We find we have far more in common with the retired / downsizing Parisians in the area who seem to have a life experience and attitude (viz tolerance / open-mindedness) that is far more inline with our own. 

Mrs R51

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[quote user="Richard51"][quote user="Chancer"]

Of course not everybody is and I do find that education, travel and exposure to other cultures broadens peoples minds and horizons but overt racism is the norm and accepted as such around me.

[/quote]

I agree with you completely on that one.  We have been shocked, in rural France, at quite how parochial and narrow-minded many of the residents are.  A significant proportion have not travelled beyond the department they live in - and have no desire to do so.  Our neighbour is quite dismissive when we visit any place that is more than 30km from us.  We get a 'Pah! That's in the Lot / Correze / Haute Vienne...  Why do you want to go there?'  We find we have far more in common with the retired / downsizing Parisians in the area who seem to have a life experience and attitude (viz tolerance / open-mindedness) that is far more inline with our own. 

Mrs R51
[/quote]

Thank god I'm not the only one, I was starting to get a bit paranoid and after living here 9 years and was suddenly thinking perhaps I had moved to a bad part of France. I have also noticed that when they 'fall out' they do it with a vengeance, it might be something simple like not being invited to a particular event after which they refuse point blank to speak to the person who held it or even share the same air as them. I do find you have to be so careful what you say when you live in such a small village, fortunately I learnt that quite early on at somebodies else expense i.e. they made the faux pas and I saw the result. There is the added problem that everyone seems to be related, if you kick one in the crutch the next morning everyone in the village walks with a limp. Sometimes you feel you should say something when they make these comments but I find it best to just walk away. If you really want to hear some racist comments listen to some of the old solders who were conscripted (I believe it ended in 2001 in France) and fought in Algeria and other French colonies.

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If you don't speak:/understand french you will obviously miss a lot of this. My comprehension is improving and I can follow most of their (overheard ) conversations now, but previously lived in blissful ignorance.[:)]

This morning I overheard some people talking in the supermarket, and one said " Mais, il ne vient pas de ici" with a disapproving look."Il" probably comes from the next commune!

However people are the same in rural England - my uncle, a Northumberland farmer, can't stand southerners, and doesn't try to hide it.

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[quote user="Bugsy"]Interesting, if predictable views on this thread. I firmly believe that, certainly in the UK, racism grew dramatically at the exact same time that legislation was introduced telling the populous that it was against the law to express anything that could be seen as racist. Has it worked, no, of course it hasn't, it just succeeded in turning a nation of very tolerant people into something much worse.[/quote]

I think you are quite correct with this statement.

Now we have, at long last a change of Government in the UK and the PC loony left have been kicked out, perhaps thing will change for the better.

The new Government has made an excellent start, no ID cards, no second runway at Stansted and the scrapping this week of HIPS packs.

Perhaps one day we in the UK will be able to call a spade a spade again!!!!!!
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Observation from Spain, the municipality of Lleida has voted to ban Burka & Niqab in public places.

The on-line newspaper 20 minutes is running a vote.

 Sí, porque el uso de esta prenda denigra a la mujer y viola el derecho a la igualdad de género.89%4037 votos
   No, esta prohibición no respeta la libertad individual ni religiosa.5%231 votos
   Hay problemas más urgentes y prioritarios que solucionar. El uso del burka es minoritario en España.6%265 votos

   Total:
4533 votos

Not much doubt there.

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[quote user="Bugsy"]Interesting, if predictable views on this thread. I firmly believe that, certainly in the UK, racism grew dramatically at the exact same time that legislation was introduced telling the populous that it was against the law to express anything that could be seen as racist. Has it worked, no, of course it hasn't, it just succeeded in turning a nation of very tolerant people into something much worse.[/quote]

Racism has always flourished in the UK and it's nothing to do with the law.  Anti-French/Walloon during the Protestant refugee period (riots in the City of London, in the 16th/17th centuries), anti-Jews in the East End of London from the mid-Victorian period through the 1930s (Blackshirts etc), no Blacks Irish or Dogs in the 1950s, anti-Uganda Asians in the 1970s, general racism in London against Afro-Caribbeans and Asians post-war which continues until today.  And that also included the Labour voting white working classes, who could be a racist as their right wing neighbours in the East End of London in militant strongholds like the docks, the can drivers of London and the major car manufacturers.

Pleased to say that in my family we have campaigned/fought against racism since the 1930s as did my partner's family after they were subjected to many years of anti-Asian racism and that was before the race relations legislation was ever introduced.

The difference now is that the extreme right are being as vocal as they were before the legislation was introduced and it seems until the recent general election they were gathering more followers as they did in the 1930s and 1950/60s and there is the rise of the middle classes bringing in legislation to back up what many of those of a more direct and militant frame of mind have been doing for some years.  Tho of course the right now also has the protection of the human rights legislation so they get to say their bit in public, which is right and proper as is my right to oppose what they say.

We have met several people since moving to France who told us they moved from the UK because they didn't want to live in a country with so many immigrants.  One couple came from rural Wales and the other from Dundee, not sure whether they had the same incidences of immigration as we had in East London, that wouldn't even have been a factor that ever motivated me to move to France, didn't even cross my mind that moving from multi-ethnic UK to multi-ethnic France was all that different actually.

As for the discussions on the burqa, I think the French have got it right, it's an ethnicity/cultural issue not a religious issue and wholly agree with no religious symbolism in state schools.  

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Smethwick 1964 - the infamous slogan "If you want a nigger for your neighbour vote Liberal or Labour" was probably responsible for overturning a near certain Labour victory by the Tories.

Portsmouth followers' irrational hatred of the "scum" that follow Southampton - is that really any different?

I like to think that my dislike of any Scots, blacks, Asians, Welsh, Jews (better be careful I married one), football supporters or vegetarians is not just because they are Scots, blacks etc but anyone discovering my antipathy will immediately assume that my reasons are solely racist without enquiring further. No amount of legislation can force me to like any of the above and I can imagine many like minded folks would dig in their heels on a point of principle and their views will become further entrenched.

Hopefully a change of government will allow sensible discussions on immigration and the fears of many of the electorate but as most of the MPs and Whitehall mandarins are far removed geographically as well as socially from the deprived ghettoes where racism and immigrants flourish I doubt much will change.

John - I am the sort of immigrant that should be welcomed not like them others

 

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The Bleeding Heart Ivory Tower Dwelling Liberal mindset is well illustrated in this article during the week, by a foreigner instucting Brits how to run their country!

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23838997-if-we-demonise-migrants-it-reflects-badly-on-us.do

All apart from hugely erroneous statements masquerading as "Facts", despite the core reality that after 13 years of NuLiebour fiscal profligacy Britain is Bankrupt (And far worse fiscally than Greece!), this silly woman advocates throwing yet more Social Security cash around.

Apart from defined Xenophobia and racism (Which of course exists all over the World: a high cast Hindu chartered accountant I know - charming man - is absolutely "Racist", when it comes to Gujeratis!), I believe the core problem amongst the majority of balanced "nice" people, has nothing whatsoever to do with colour of skin or ethnicity: it emerges and has been fomented by idiot government incompetence in failing to control borders properly, failing to track asylum seekers, opening the doors of Britain to all comers as a covert social engineering experiment in multiculturalism, and failure since the early 1950s to ensure school leavers are correctly qualified to fill available jobs: and ensuring a proper balance, economically, between potential workforce and potential jobs.

I always ask people why they believe "Asylum Seekers" don't stop in la belle France: but show determination to reach Britain? It isn't really rocket science now is it!

Britain's sorry apologies for governments, over the years, have a wonderful track record in taking action (Or trying to) after the horse has not only bolted but died, many years before!

Here is an excellent example:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23839212-east-europeans-face-deportation-in-london-rough-sleeping-crackdown.do

I cannot speak for France, meaningfully, since I lack the detailed necessary knowledge and information: however and that said, I am sure France presents with disparate yet and powerful reasons for xenophobia and racism: much of this probably, going back to the 1950s and Algeria: since in the late 1800s and early 1900s, Paris and many other parts of France were amongst the most apparently tolerant and cosmopolitan places in the World: Josephine Baker being perhaps one excellent example. Lesley Hutchinson being another.

 

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I wouldn't know if I have a "bleeding heart ivory tower dwelling liberal mindset" but I cannot see anything wrong with the statement made by the 'silly woman' that "Too many asylum-seekers have been treated with brutality and contempt by staff taking their cue from Labour's “clear tough policy”. Respect and compassion would reflect better on Britain, and would make no difference to actual numbers."

The second article is not really anything new. Legally migrants can be returned to their place or origin within the EU if they cannot fully support themselves, without recourse to benefits ( which of course many immigrants to the UK are not entitled to claim despite the rubbish spouted by the UK press and this is why they are on the streets!) .

I wonder how many Brits would be caught up in the net if France ever decided to do the same thing?

As for the myth that all asylum seekers are flocking to the UK to be given a sackful of cash and a free house, the reality again is somewhat different. Asylum seekers in France are given 10€ a day and are not allowed to work, whereas those that manage to get to the UK are given just between 35 and 42£ a week. Asylum seekers whose appeals fail but are too unwell to return home are only allowed 35£ in vouchers.

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Just to underline Quillan's comments.  We have just had a large family rent our place for a long weekend and they arrived last night.  It transpires the family are 'robed' Moroccans.  (The description used by our neighbour who looks after the house for us - though I had great difficulty in establishing whether this was hijab or burqa as it seems they are viewed with equal disdain by les voisins.)  Apparently their arrival has not gone down well in the hamlet and there has been much muttering and malcontent... 

Mrs R51

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[quote user="Gardener"]I wouldn't know if I have a "bleeding heart ivory tower dwelling liberal mindset" but I cannot see anything wrong with the statement made by the 'silly woman' that "Too many asylum-seekers have been treated with brutality and contempt by staff taking their cue from Labour's “clear tough policy”. Respect and compassion would reflect better on Britain, and would make no difference to actual numbers." The second article is not really anything new. Legally migrants can be returned to their place or origin within the EU if they cannot fully support themselves, without recourse to benefits ( which of course many immigrants to the UK are not entitled to claim despite the rubbish spouted by the UK press and this is why they are on the streets!) . I wonder how many Brits would be caught up in the net if France ever decided to do the same thing? As for the myth that all asylum seekers are flocking to the UK to be given a sackful of cash and a free house, the reality again is somewhat different. Asylum seekers in France are given 10€ a day and are not allowed to work, whereas those that manage to get to the UK are given just between 35 and 42£ a week. Asylum seekers whose appeals fail but are too unwell to return home are only allowed 35£ in vouchers.[/quote]

Interesting.........

Then perhaps you might explain quite how in the early 1990s, in the property crash, a failed speculative developer's liquidated condominium block, was purchased by Wapping Council to house Somalian "Refugees".

Which act caused a retired docker, who had lived in the same archaic two up two down council house for some 30 years, to join the National Front and campaign vigorously in a local election and become the very first NF local councillor?

You might also care to examine the statements made in her late and hurried defence by one Margaret Hodge MP reference immigrants jumping the housing list in preference to those who have been waiting for years, when she became frightened of defeat (By mainly a Lib Dem or Tory candidate actually).......

And such as Peterborough and Swindon and their local problems caused by having to accommodate asylum seekers and Eastern European Roma........

These few case studies are far from apocryphal, sadly. Case One: BBC, some years back.

And then people wonder why the BNP has gained so many supporters: and why xenophobia and racisim is much more of a problem in Britain today, than ever.

And furthermore, whatever you might say, how pray, can Britain support its extant population, vis a vis scarce social housing and other now threatened resources, without trying additionally to become the social Oxfam Shop of the World?

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I can't find anything about Wapping Council buying condominium's to house Somalians, have I Googled the wrong thing?

I did noticed that a well quoted source, The London Evening Standard did run an article on the 7/7/09 claiming that immigrants take only 2% of the social housing and only 11% of immigrants arriving get social housing, 24% live with family members already there and the remaining (65%)  live in privately rented accommodation and that claims that immigrants jump the queue for social housing is totally wrong. This data was gathered, apparently, by the Commission of Equal Equality in conjunction with NOS. The real problem lies in the selling off of council properties in the past and the last government failing in its election promise to increase social housing stock which has led to perceived concerns that immigrants jump queues. The only people who jump the queues are public sector workers such as those working in the emergency services or hospital workers because the last government said that cheap affordable housing must be made available to them. I guess particularly with the latter, nurses for example, many of them are immigrants but at least they are working and contributing something tax wise and to society.

Another thing I find interesting is that there are officially 5M immigrants in the UK although many suggest this figure is double especially when you add in immigrants from the EU and those that live in the UK illegally. There are 2.5M unemployed a figure which again some say could be doubled because the government 'fiddles' the figures it is claimed. Doing the maths if all the immigrants were thrown out and the jobs given to the jobless, as the BNP would like, there would be about 5M jobs with nobody to do them.

The most obvious place that one can see the impact of immigrants is within the health service where many of the top specialists, doctors and nurses are immigrants and many believe that if they all decided to pack up and go 'home' the NHS would basically collapse and cease to function. If you work in an office the chances are the cleaners are immigrants as well.

The trouble with many 'indigenous white' people in the UK who can be found drawing benefits is that they believe that they are owed something. They simply don't have the job skill sets, drive or inclination to work but they use immigrants as an excuse in that they are deprived of the opportunity to work by the immigrants which in fact is utter rubbish. Many are just plain lazy and will use whatever excuse they can not to work and immigrants are an easy target.

As for BNP councilors in Wapping, well after the last elections I believe, if you visit their website, there are none left, they all lost their seats.

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Talking about faith, sometimes it gets a bit complicated!

In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant

Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus

18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following

response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which

was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear

Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people

regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try

to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone

tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind

them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End

of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding

some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1.Leviticus

25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided

they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims

that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why

can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into

slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you

think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed

no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual

uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have

tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull

on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the

Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not

pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who

insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should

be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I

ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even

though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser

abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are

there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may

not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to

admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or

is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get

their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though

this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9.

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me

unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My

uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops

in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two

different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to

curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the

trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we

do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know

you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable

expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank

you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your

adoring fan.

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,

Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of

Virginia

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Yes Swissie but this is from the same country where recently they opened a centre to explain how God made the world in 6 days and had the 7th off, I should think he jolly well needed it. [:)] I believe that in the bible hell is a very hot place and smells of sulphur, well it gets pretty hot down here in the summer and smelly too after 4 boiled eggs with baked beans and an onion for breakfast. [;-)]

Back to reality, well sort of, I understand from my wife who read in the Daily Mail (that's why I say 'sort of' when referring to reality) that St Andrews golf course wanted people to help clean the greens during the summer. A requirement of the job was that you started at 05:30 in the morning, they advertised but nobody wanted the jobs. They approached the local Job Centre who sent them half a dozen or so people who were more than happy to have a job whatever time it started. They were all Eastern European immigrants.

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As everywhere, some do, some don't. Friends arriving this week really understand humour, even English humour... and as a Professor Honoris Causa in politics - irony is his speciality!

Thanks Kathy, not mine, I'm afraid - just borrowed it from elsewhere - and couldn't resist.

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