Burqa ban under discussion

[Clair]

The proposed burqa ban has not been mentioned here, so just a quick catch-up:

Last month, in a major speech, Sarkozy suggested the burqa should be banned in France as incompatible with French values.

Several deputies have since formed a commission which will investigate whether the garment is compatible with "the core values of the French community and notably with the principle of gender equality".

This was the reason used last year to refuse French nationality to a Moroccan married woman (see here).

In

the memorandum explaining the creation of the commission of

inquiry, members made a clear distinction between the

wearing of Islamic headscarf and the burqa:

"If the Islamic headscarf

is a distinctive sign of belonging to a religion, we're here at the

extreme of this practice. It is no longer just an ostentatious

religious event, but an attack on freedom of women and the

affirmation of femininity. A woman who wears the burqa or niqab lives in a state

of seclusion, exclusion and unbearable humiliation. Her very existence

is denied."

Deputies say they come across situations every day "in marriage ceremonies or at the time for a

passport, we are faced with women who refuse to

remove their full veils, often under pressure from their husbands."

The number of women affected by this practice, linked to Salafism, a

rigorous course of Islam, is unknown in France.

The commission members propose to

measure the extent of the problem and open the debate with Muslim

associations on these "abuses". According to the Collective against

Islamophobia, which recognise that this is "a lifestyle choice that can

shock in our society", the wearing of the burqa exists "in all social

categories regardless of women's country of origin." It is also

readily chosen by French women converts to Islam, who seek to visibly demonstrate their new faith.

Earlier this week, the US monitoring services have reported that Al-Qaeda threatens France for its

opposition to the burka.

More info:

Sarkozy says the burqa is "not welcome" in France

France to consider banning the burqa

The niqab is a sectarian symbol not a religious one (in French here)

Définitions : Burqa, hidjab, niqab ou tchador? (in Google English here)

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Clair"]

Earlier this week, the US monitoring services have reported that Al-Qaeda threatens France for its

opposition to the burka.

[/quote]

Perhaps its time to go on the offensive, France could (should?) threaten Islamic countries for their opposition to the bikini.

[Clair]

The bikini as a religious symbol? [Www]

Somehow, I doubt it would work [:P]!

[powerdesal]

The burkha is not a religious symbol either, its a cultural one.

[Frenchie]

My gut feeling is that Sarko's right..

Ready to be stoned.....

[Clair]

[quote user="powerdesal"]The burkha is not a religious symbol either, its a cultural one.

[/quote]I know! It was a deliberately poor attempt at playing devil's advocate [:)].

[Clair]

[quote user="Frenchie"]My gut feeling is that Sarko's right.

[/quote]

I agree with you and I believe many people do, although they probably do not voice their opinion aloud for fear of being seen as racist.

Still, I am puzzled by Obama's stand, as he advocates the West to "avoid dictating what

clothes a Muslim women should wear" (here).

[Braco]

Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality – they probably ran out of ink and did not include a long list of things to ban.

 

In my view beware of any politician wishing to ban things as they are at best ridiculous and at worst counter productive.

 

Banning drugs gives them a certain cache to some and increases consumption …….. banning the Burka will probably have the same effect.

 

Leave it to wither and die much the same way as the use of snuff.

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Braco"]

Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality – they probably ran out of ink and did not include a long list of things to ban.

 

[/quote]

The Burqa is the contrary of liberty and equality.

There are enough injustices in this country, let 's not create another one.

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

I recall a couple of years ago that the French educational authorities clamped down on the wearing of religious symbols (including headscarves by Muslim girls) in state schools and a similar discussion ensued but the ban was enforced and the world didn't come to an end.

To me, when clerics who are wholly male, that are no female-clerics in Islam that have any visibility as far as I can see, dictate what women can and can't wear, it's a step too far.  When places like Afghanistan still have men throwing acid in the faces of women who refuse to wear the burqa, even going as far as killing women who don't wear them, denying female children the right to schooling and education etc etc, in middle eastern countries where women aren't allowed out without their husband's permission or are refused the 'right' to drive a car, where 'honour killings' are still practiced and female genetalia is still mutilated no matter what international law says, it's a religion going far too far.

To me, Islam is not a religion which has equality between the genders and until it does across the board, no matter which part of Islam a person may belong to, and where men and women do have equality of rights, views and access, this is always going to be a difficult discussion.

Where women wear the burqa and they say that they want to, I wonder whether that's because they have been sort of brainwashed into that view of the world.

My own view is that so much of social interaction is based on facial recognition, expression etc and basic face recognition, the veil totally goes against that basic psychological frame of reference.  The headscarf is slightly different because you can see the face but again, how much of that is male dictat and how much is truly what a woman may want?

[Braco]

Hi Frenchie

The Burqa is the contrary of liberty and equality. In your opinion and the opinion of others maybe. The only opinion that should matter is the individual that choose if to wear one or not. Ditto tattoos, piercings, union jack shorts..........................

The freedoms of the masses are built on the rights of the individual.

 

There are a number of things that I also find repulsive, but I do not seek to ban any of them.

 

Just to put this into context there are many people who find the idea of wearing any swim ware at a beach absurd. Would you also support the banning of swim ware and the introduction of compulsory nudity at the beach?

 

 

 

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Braco"]The only opinion that should matter is the individual that choose if to wear one or not. [/quote]

I think this is THE point.

Does the woman have a choice not to wear one if she does not wants to?

Is it really HER choice?

[Scooby]

Agree completely Frenchie. 

There are many arabic countries who

are very happy to impose their social norms on visitors because the

behaviour of their visitors would otherwise cause offence.   It seem

rather disingenuous, therefore, for those same countries to be making

threatening noises when a western country makes the same stand about

things that are incompatible with their cultural norms.

[woolybanana]

It is definitely not a choice!! Women who wear the foul things are brainwashed by the extremists and/or bullied by members of their families or community.

[Braco]

Hi Clair

Is it really her choice - I have no idea, but would guess that it is a mixture of choice, ignorance of alternatives, fear, herd mentality, desire to conform, and peer group pressure?

Much the same as every years fashion changes.

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Braco"]Much the same as every years fashion changes. [/quote]

Braco, you're making a facile and disingenuous comment.

Nobody has ever threatened me (or anyone I know) with a beating or a flogging for not wearing the latest fashion.

[Scooby]

Braco I'm not sure you really understand the position.  To say it's like a fad for the latest cut of jeans is being so flippant it's bordering on the obscene. 

Two examples (and these are not die hard islamist families):

Family with two daughters one son.  Wife isn't allowed to eat in the same room as her husband.  She has to serve his food and walk out backwards.  Daughters do all the work, wait hand and foot on father and brother.  Son gets £1,000 hi-fi for birthday, daughters don't receive a birthday present.  Son gets largest bedroom, daughter share the box room.  Elder daughter goes to college in London (as I said not as extreme as the situations this post is addressing).  Meets and falls in love with white college student.  Father cuts off daughter completely and sister is told that she is to have no further contact.  Younger sister devastated as sisters are very close and defies father and leaves home.  Death order taken out on both girls. Younger daughter was my sister's best friend - she has since lost touch as daughters had to move out of the area due to circumstances.

One day at college a new mature student sits next to me.  We start chatting and I ask why she started the course so late.  At first she was reluctant to tell me then she explained that her husband was beating her so she had left him.  She was given refuge in a hostel for battered women.  Her husband swore he would hunt her down and take revenge for the 'humiliation' she had caused him.  She said she had moved to 8 different 'safe' addresses over the last two years and each time he had tracked her down.  She was currently at a local women's hostel but was terrified he would find her and kill her.  She attended the course for three weeks then we never saw her again.

[Braco]

Scooby

Ignorance in all its forms should be attacked and held up to ridicule. Are the examples you cite the actions of ignorant people who happen to be Muslim, or people made ignorant because they are Muslim?

 

A few decades ago a group of ‘freedom lovers’ produced a hit film called the Eternal Jew. Their descendants are promoting the latest sequel – the Eternal Muslim.

 

Politicians always need a bogy man to scare the electors, and to cover their short comings.

 

[Scooby]

[quote user="Braco"]

Are the examples you cite the actions of ignorant people who happen to be Muslim, or people made ignorant because they are Muslim?

[/quote]

The latter.  It is to do with the status afforded to muslim women. 

[Braco]

Scooby

I would tend to agree with you up to a point. Similar examples can be found in almost all religions Hindus/Orthodox Jews/Sikhs/Mormons …….. the list goes on.

The bottom line is that any parent who values one child over another is ignorant plain and simple – what religion they follow (if any) is not the prime reason.

PS I hold all organised religions in as high regard as I do racism/nationalism.

 

[Iceni]

Why is it that Westerners visting Muslim countries seem to have to obey local rules but Muslims in UK do not ?

John

[Clair]

Why is it that Westerners visiting Muslim countries seem to have to obey local rules but Muslims elsewhere do not ?

[Braco]

Iceni

 

Which rules in the UK are you referring to?

 

Is this a competition to become the most repressive?

 

You either have freedom or you don’t. The minute some one decides what you can or must wear you are in the repressive list.

 

Totally agree with the French decision to ban all religious insignia at school. To keep the same standard for banning the Burqa would require too many other cultural items to also be banned.

 

 

[Boiling a frog]

Is banning the Burqa going to help all those women who are allegedly oppressed.

Will the beatings, treatment as a second class citizen etcetc ,cited by many on here,not just continue anyway.

[Chancer]

Doesn't it hinge around the principle of assimilation?