A year in France

[Chancer]

[quote user="Chiefluvvie"][quote user="Chancer"]

[/quote]

Most importantly residency is simply a matter of fact (i.e. not just choice) - it's where you spend most time and where your centre of 'activity' is. But, you can only have one 'principal' place of residence. So, even is you spread yourself between 6 or 7 different places or countries - chances are you'll spend more time in one of them than any other - even if it's only a day! So Chancer, if you spend more time in France than anywhere else - France can be deemed to be your place of primary residence - regardless of any 182 day rules.

Chiefluvvie[/quote]

Interesting, I am sure that when I looked at it carefully their were other measures such as centre of economic interest and centre of family interest, there is no clear cut one fits all rule as every case is different, someone having sold up completely in the UK, living and working in France is probably clear cut, a French residency but others like mine and the OP are not so.

From your words above "France can be deemed your place of residency" yes I could well say that, and when it comes to selling up and capital gains taxes etc I surely will but I can equally deem the UK to be my place of residence (see below) and that is the point of my question, who decides? In my particular case if it is I who deems where my residency is then surely it is a choice (mine) rather than a fact? I guess it comes back once again to the question, - who decides?

In any case I have only needed to choose my place or residency twice over the last 7 years and neither concerned healthcare, one was at the side of the road with an incandescent Gendarme the other was at a public enquiry in the UK where I was defending myself against an enforcement order, the case revolved around whether I had resided on a stable and continous basis for more than 4 years in a dwelling that I had converted from outbuildings before the local authority served their enforcement order.

The local authorities case was that I lived and worked in France, was therefore a French resident and had only ocassionally visited the property. By my own admission I had spent less than 20% of my time in the UK during the 4 year period, I was however a taxpayer and on the electoral role at that address and in my view it was my principal residence, my time in France was and is spent in working on my second residence albeit unpaid employment.

The inspector appointed by the secretary of state agreed with my view and my appeal was granted, the following is the relevant extract from his findings:

"It is analogous to that which would arise if an occupier worked abroad for substantial periods or undertook military duty for several months at a time, but left most of their belongings at home while doing so. Although that person would not always be physically present in the accomodation, they would return on a regular basis for conventional domestic habitation and it would remain their home and principal residence".

Playing a system to ones advantage is a very subjective view but in my opinion it certainly does not imply illegality or breaking a law unless someone can quote a relevant one.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"] Finally as an aside to Chiefluvvie, the WHO may place an 18 place gap in the rankings between the UK and the French healthcare systems, but clinically we UK docs are every bit as capable as our French counterparts, and our performance is assessed and monitored in the NHS more than in most countries and certainly as much as anywhere in the world. Don't think that 'healthcare system' equates to 'medical capability' in any sense.[/quote]I would be interested to hear how quickly an ordinary person would be seen by a specialist in France for Macular Degeneration. A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with this condition and his GP was very relieved he had private health insurance as he could be seen within a couple of weeks. It seems without this option it would have been 28 weeks before he would have been seen on the NHS.

It's not the competance  of NHS medical staff that is the problem - it's the delays in being seen  

[Chiefluvvie]

[quote user="NormanH"] There is a lot of moralistic codswallop in this thread. .....
Much of what has been written about here is alarmist, and gleaned from internet links rather than experience or observation......
........I wouldn't do it, but plenty of people have an continue to do so.

[/quote]

Norman - name always makes me think of a vicar - no idea why!

Could you be specific as to what you consider to be 'moralistic codswallop' in this thread? I have a tiny suspicion you may very well be referring to the content of my posts.....

Also - for clarity, what is it that you consider to be alarmist ? All the internet links provided are from wholly reliable sources - horses mouth stuff at the very least. In any case, how on earth do you know that posts are NOT based on experience or observation. You soundly mildly like you may be in denial.....

And finally....after decrying previous posts at length, you end by essentially agreeing with their sentiment - which is somewhat bizzare.

Anyway - keep up the good work....

Chiefluvvie

[Chiefluvvie]

[quote user="Chancer"][quote user="Chiefluvvie"][quote user="Chancer"]

[/quote]

Most importantly residency is simply a matter of fact (i.e. not just choice) - it's where you spend most time and where your centre of 'activity' is. But, you can only have one 'principal' place of residence. So, even is you spread yourself between 6 or 7 different places or countries - chances are you'll spend more time in one of them than any other - even if it's only a day! So Chancer, if you spend more time in France than anywhere else - France can be deemed to be your place of primary residence - regardless of any 182 day rules.

Chiefluvvie[/quote]

Interesting, I am sure that when I looked at it carefully their were other measures such as centre of economic interest and centre of family interest, there is no clear cut one fits all rule as every case is different, someone having sold up completely in the UK, living and working in France is probably clear cut, a French residency but others like mine and the OP are not so.

From your words above "France can be deemed your place of residency" yes I could well say that, and when it comes to selling up and capital gains taxes etc I surely will but I can equally deem the UK to be my place of residence (see below) and that is the point of my question, who decides? In my particular case if it is I who deems where my residency is then surely it is a choice (mine) rather than a fact? I guess it comes back once again to the question, - who decides?

In any case I have only needed to choose my place or residency twice over the last 7 years and neither concerned healthcare, one was at the side of the road with an incandescent Gendarme the other was at a public enquiry in the UK where I was defending myself against an enforcement order, the case revolved around whether I had resided on a stable and continous basis for more than 4 years in a dwelling that I had converted from outbuildings before the local authority served their enforcement order.

The local authorities case was that I lived and worked in France, was therefore a French resident and had only ocassionally visited the property. By my own admission I had spent less than 20% of my time in the UK during the 4 year period, I was however a taxpayer and on the electoral role at that address and in my view it was my principal residence, my time in France was and is spent in working on my second residence albeit unpaid employment.

The inspector appointed by the secretary of state agreed with my view and my appeal was granted, the following is the relevant extract from his findings:

"It is analogous to that which would arise if an occupier worked abroad for substantial periods or undertook military duty for several months at a time, but left most of their belongings at home while doing so. Although that person would not always be physically present in the accomodation, they would return on a regular basis for conventional domestic habitation and it would remain their home and principal residence".

Playing a system to ones advantage is a very subjective view but in my opinion it certainly does not imply illegality or breaking a law unless someone can quote a relevant one.

[/quote]

Chancer - seriously interesting and certainly food for thought however.....I'd love to know more about your experience on the side of the road with the incandescent Genrdarme!! Much more interesting....

Chiefluvvie

[Chancer]

It wasnt my fault honest!!!!!!

It was the little devil [6] that used to sit on my shoulder that was responsible, I have finally managed to destroy him but he had his way with me for many years.

I was overtaking a slow moving vehicle, I was towing my trailer, it was a long straight road, no solid central line and the oncoming vehicles were a very long way off, en bref a completely safe manoeuvre, as I was pulling back into my lane the first oncoming vehicle that was still hundreds of yards away started flashing his lights.  The little devil [6]took over and said to me "that was nowhere near close, show him what close really means, give him a reason to flash his lights, go on! [6] Pull out again and do a chicken run [6]"

I do recall thinking as the blue Clio swerved unnecessarily off the road that it was a bit of an exaggeration, then it did a U turn with the gyrophares and klaxon [:-))][:-))]. It was definitely not my best day and the beginning of the end for the late [6]

The chief flick as I said was completely incandescent, his colleague kept telling him to calm down and his response was "dont tell me to calm down, this idiot tried to kill me!" I didnt help matters when I explained that when he flashed his lights I had confused him with a friend who drove a similar vehicle.

My French wasnt very good but I kept hearing the words commissariat, menottes, guard à vue, tribunal demain, prison etc and there was no mistaking his mood.

The amande that I finally got away with was for overtaking without sufficient space to complete the manoeuvre, which was patently not true for the initial overtake and the chicken run was not an overtake but it seemed prudent to accept it!!!! 

[Daft Doctor]

[quote user="Chiefluvvie"] What's wrong with French Doctors ? The World Health Organisation seems to think they're a pretty good bet! France in pole position and the UK ranking 18th! [/quote]

Hi Chiefluvvie, I certainly don't feel any need whatsoever to defend my profession, I was simply responding as an aside to the above comment of yours which appeared in my eyes to suggest that it was the French doctors who were ranked above those of the UK and not the actual healthcare systems (incidentally we could have a long debate about value for money on that score, but I don't want to go down that route!).  I just wanted to set the record straight...in my opinion. 

[Chancer]

While you are on line Daft Doctor, can you tell me what is the average length of a consultation in the UK?

I ask because this week I had to go for a dive medical with a co diver who is un médécin fédérale, it was an open surgery, just turn up and wait, well i waited over 2 hours! I was timing the previous patients and they all took 25 minutes +- a couple of minutes which seemed an eternity to me, i am sure that in the UK I have rarely spent more than 5 minutes with the doctor.

My medical was reasonably involved and he does take his responsibility seriously, not just signing the paper etc, nonetheless it only took 10 minutes before he saw the next patient, what are they all doing for such a long time? Its not as if any of them looked ill, but then of course neither was I!!!

[mint]

Went to see our new doctor here, new to us that is.

Because OH has joined a table tennis club and I have joined a Keep Fit club, we needed the necessary certificates.

My form clearly asks questions about problems with back and with limbs and OH is, famously on here as I keep writing about it (!), in his 81st year.

Time of consultations?

The time it took the doctor to sign both forms to say we were fit for these activities and the time it took him to print out my usual ordonance for my asthma drugs and, at my insistence, for him to print out a standard letter to an eye specialist for OH to see about his glaucoma.

It was OH's first visit but he wasn't examined at all.  Neither was I.  Not even for-the-sake-of-appearance cursory taking of blood pressure or pulse.

Together with a few exchanges of pleasantries, I think the total time spent with him amounted to no more than 10 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, we are not complaining about our treatment because both of us are of the opinion that we'd soon know if we were unfit to join these clubs and undertake these activities and also we are firmly of the opinion that the best policy towards medical care is to stay well away from doctors.

Even so, it was the quickest and easiest way of earning 46 euros that I have ever seen.....

[woolybanana]

My doc will chat medicine or art or history or .... , you name it, for hours if encouraged. But when I asked him to confirm my diagnosis of diabetes he was superb, without making a fuss.

The art of getting in and out quickly is to time the visit so as to be either the first or last in the queue.

[nomoss]

I left the UK over 50 years ago and the rules on residence etc. etc. have changed more times than I can remember.  I no longer pay much attention.

I reckon the vicar of Bray had the best idea.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Chancer, most of us UK GPs work to an average consultation rate of 10 minutes, but most GPs will also tend to overrun a bit, so perhaps 10-12 mins overall would be a fair guess.  The problem with general practice of course is that you don't know what is going to walk in on any given day, but after 25 years in the game I pretty much know what the best and worst surgeries can entail.  Thankfully, the reality is usually in between.  I have a small gap between patients as I've never believed it right to be typing away like hell in the computer records when the patient is still in the room.  This happened to me personally recently when I saw my own GP and it really irritated me!

I know that computerisation isn't widespread in French GP surgeries, so if they have to write out notes longhand to the level that is needed to protect them medicolegally that might explain some of the delay.  The rest might be any or all of having a sly coffee (or fag), puffing out their cheeks and taking a few deep breaths, banging their head on the table (one of my colleagues was doing this once after a 'difficult' patient had just left the room when the patient came back in unannounced to pick up the handbag she'd left on the floor - very embarrasing!), ringing their spouse, buying something on ebay/amazon, etc,etc!  Joking aside, they may just like to take it easy between patients, but if that's the case they shouldn't do 'open' surgeries, just give 20-25 minute appointments instead.  When I first started as a GP we had open surgeries on certain days, particularly on a Friday afternoon, when I was the only GP (mug) around.  After I had 35 turn up one Friday from 3.30pm in the middle of winter and didn't finish until 8.45pm (when my wife and I were meant to be heading off to some friends for the weekend) that was the end of it!

 

[Chancer]

Thanks for the reply, he was on his own yesterday,  his first day back after a holiday with the Toussaint public holiday the next day (today) so it was a little chaud for him, he was also training a very fetching stagaire which also explains him taking a little longer.

He always does his computer notes in front of the patient, he sort of multi-tasks and does it while he is wrapping things up, i could hear the daparting patients saying goodbye to him in the reception and he then came straight through to the salle d'attente so I know that at least while i was there he took no breaks between patients, although mine being quicker perhaps he did take some time to admire the attributes of the stagaire [;-)], I certainly would have!

I still would like to be a fly on the wall and see what the French patients are doing for 25 minutes each! Maybe they all needed a lie down after meeting the stagaire, she was dressed like a female doctor in a French porn movie even down to the glasses, perhaps she thought that was the correct dress code.

[idun]

[quote user="NickP"]What planet  do you live on chiefluvvie ? What is the thing about choosing number 1 rather than number 18? the mind boggles. As for the contributions qualifications, nobody has a choice, it doesn't matter how many payments are required, you pay every week that you work; until the age of 65. It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. [/quote]

 

But only a small part of your national insurance goes towards your pension and at least in the UK, when people retire, they don't have to continue paying towards their state health care, in France they do.

[EmilyA]

We normally get about 20 - 30 minutes with our doctor and there is no break between appointments. He does chat about all sorts of things, but at the same time I think he is a very shrewd and capable doctor who gets straight to the point when something is wrong. I think he does have the luxury of more time than UK GPs, but he is also making a judgement about the whole person, which I find reassuring. I take a longish book for the waiting room. What I do think is less efficient than the UK is the absence of nurses, physios etc in the practice to pick up more of the routine stuff.

[Cendrillon]

[quote user="EmilyA"]We normally get about 20 - 30 minutes with our doctor and there is no break between appointments. He does chat about all sorts of things, but at the same time I think he is a very shrewd and capable doctor who gets straight to the point when something is wrong. I think he does have the luxury of more time than UK GPs, but he is also making a judgement about the whole person, which I find reassuring. I take a longish book for the waiting room. What I do think is less efficient than the UK is the absence of nurses, physios etc in the practice to pick up more of the routine stuff.[/quote]

Well I really cannot fault our U.K. practice. We indeed have nurses / nurse practioners and all sorts of other medical staff on hand at ours, not to mention various weekly /monthly clinics for specific illnesses. Yes, I often have to wait a while in the waiting room but I know that when I see my G.P. or one of the parteners they will give me all the time in the world if necessary.

[;-)]They also have a good supply of the latest magazines in the waiting room. I take a small notebook and copy out any good recipes or websites that I come across in the magazines.

edit: Emily I mis-read your post and thought you were saying that U.K. did not provide these services.

Humble apologies, I should read the post properly the first time and then answer![:$]

[NickP]

[quote user="idun"]

[quote user="NickP"]What planet  do you live on chiefluvvie ? What is the thing about choosing number 1 rather than number 18? the mind boggles. As for the contributions qualifications, nobody has a choice, it doesn't matter how many payments are required, you pay every week that you work; until the age of 65. It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. [/quote]

 

But only a small part of your national insurance goes towards your pension and at least in the UK, when people retire, they don't have to continue paying towards their state health care, in France they do.

[/quote]

And your point is? [8-)]

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Cendrillon"][quote user="EmilyA"]We normally get about 20 - 30 minutes with our doctor and there is no break between appointments. He does chat about all sorts of things, but at the same time I think he is a very shrewd and capable doctor who gets straight to the point when something is wrong. I think he does have the luxury of more time than UK GPs, but he is also making a judgement about the whole person, which I find reassuring. I take a longish book for the waiting room. What I do think is less efficient than the UK is the absence of nurses, physios etc in the practice to pick up more of the routine stuff.[/quote]

Well I really cannot fault our U.K. practice. We indeed have nurses / nurse practioners and all sorts of other medical staff on hand at ours, not to mention various weekly /monthly clinics for specific illnesses. Yes, I often have to wait a while in the waiting room but I know that when I see my G.P. or one of the parteners they will give me all the time in the world if necessary.

[;-)]They also have a good supply of the latest magazines in the waiting room. I take a small notebook and copy out any good recipes or websites that I come across in the magazines.
[/quote]

We also have a very good GP practice in UK, with several specialist nurses (diabetes etc) and a physio etc. Visits are planned for 10 minutes, but patients get as long as they need; I had about 20 minutes earlier this week, and have had maybe 30 minutes for particularly worrying problems, although they ask us to book a double appointment if we think it will take longer than ten minutes. The doctors have some leeway built in to the system, so waiting doesn't continue to lengthen as the day goes on, but if we do have to wait for a doctor nobody minds, as everyone knows they give us whatever time we need. They also arrange phone calls from the GP if it's a minor problem, and do home visits when necessary.

I can usually see my GP within a day (unless he's on holiday or on a course), but I've never visited anyone in the practice I wouldn't visit again. In France I've tried two surgeries, and wouldn't visit either again; both entailed very long waits, and neither doctor seemed on the ball, although both doctors were youngish and presumably well up on current medical matters.

 

[andyh4]

Back to Stan's original question and some of the responses.

 

There have been several mentions of 183 days (and also one of 90 days) and that then making you tax resident.

The Double Taxation Treaty between the UK and France only makes mention of 183 days once - and that is in the section regaring employed persons.

 

So in fact the 183 days has no legislative basis for an inactive.

 

In fact if Stan wished to make his 4 x 12 week stays for just one year I think he could quite legitimately avoid becoming French tax resident - especially if family celbrations (briths, marriages, birthdays and Christmas were all celebrated in the UK.  But try doing it in the second year and you would be moving onto shifting sands.

 

Chiefluvvie's link to 90 days could be pertinent but my reading of it is that it is aimed at those trying to establish residence, rather than those wanting to avoid such establishment.

 

But for what it is worth, if it were me, I would take Coops advice about the S1 and also fill out a French tax form.  It isn't onerous and the DDT referred to above should avoid tax being paid twice.

 

Whatever you decide Stan - enjoy it. 

[idun]

[quote user="NickP"][quote user="idun"]

[quote user="NickP"]What planet  do you live on chiefluvvie ? What is the thing about choosing number 1 rather than number 18? the mind boggles. As for the contributions qualifications, nobody has a choice, it doesn't matter how many payments are required, you pay every week that you work; until the age of 65. It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. [/quote]

 

But only a small part of your national insurance goes towards your pension and at least in the UK, when people retire, they don't have to continue paying towards their state health care, in France they do.

[/quote]

And your point is? [8-)]

[/quote]

 

My point is that you seem fixated on the number of years that the pension people require and as I keep saying that is just part of it. How could paying be too much as you were still paying for your health care and everything else linked to your national insurance.  The pension bit is so little of the amount paid in as national insurance.

The pension part of national insurance is the best investment that anyone will make in their lives, I suppose the only trick is to stay alive and get it for five years and everyone will  have every penny back that they put in.

[Stan Streason]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Back to Stan's original question and some of the responses.

 

There have been several mentions of 183 days (and also one of 90 days) and that then making you tax resident.

The Double Taxation Treaty between the UK and France only makes mention of 183 days once - and that is in the section regaring employed persons.

 

So in fact the 183 days has no legislative basis for an inactive.

 

In fact if Stan wished to make his 4 x 12 week stays for just one year I think he could quite legitimately avoid becoming French tax resident - especially if family celbrations (briths, marriages, birthdays and Christmas were all celebrated in the UK.  But try doing it in the second year and you would be moving onto shifting sands.

 

Chiefluvvie's link to 90 days could be pertinent but my reading of it is that it is aimed at those trying to establish residence, rather than those wanting to avoid such establishment.

 

But for what it is worth, if it were me, I would take Coops advice about the S1 and also fill out a French tax form.  It isn't onerous and the DDT referred to above should avoid tax being paid twice.

 

Whatever you decide Stan - enjoy it. 

[/quote]

Thanks Andy (h4?).  And Coops.

And I thought it was such an innocent little question.

I know of someone who believes his residence should be based "where I keep my best set of golf clubs - what more proof could anyone need?".

I suppose my concern about doing whatever I can to keep away from filling in any French forms, simple or otherwise, is not their difficulty in itself but knowing my luck, once you are in a system you can never get out and I would have to continue doing this long after my life returned to "normal" (and I will undoubtedly forget - and end up incurring penalties etc etc.)

[Judith]

[quote user="EmilyA"] What I do think is less efficient than the UK is the absence of nurses, physios etc in the practice to pick up more of the routine stuff.[/quote]

I quite agree.  It seems such a faff to have to go to one place for a blood test, another for an x-ray, or some other test, etc etc ....And before anyone starts - I do know that the system is arranged differently in France, but the way it is arranged, reimbursements etc going here there and everywhere for tests and then return to doctor .... seems very admin intensive and even if computerised, paper bound.

An example - hubby today to see anesthetist prior to a small intervention on Friday - then to go to acceuil and do the "entry" procedure - needed his ID, no passport, so has to take on the day...... BUT, this is the third time this year he has been admitted, he has seen the surgeon several times already (to the fact that they know him well), the anesthetist and the acceuil several times, and his paperwork is all on the file.  In this case surely he must be known to the doctors and the admin and the presentation of his carte vitale should have been sufficient proof of ID.

Over the top .... and a waste of time, money and personnel. 

[NickP]

[quote user="idun"][quote user="NickP"][quote user="idun"]

[quote user="NickP"]What planet  do you live on chiefluvvie ? What is the thing about choosing number 1 rather than number 18? the mind boggles. As for the contributions qualifications, nobody has a choice, it doesn't matter how many payments are required, you pay every week that you work; until the age of 65. It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. [/quote]

 

But only a small part of your national insurance goes towards your pension and at least in the UK, when people retire, they don't have to continue paying towards their state health care, in France they do.

[/quote]

And your point is? [8-)]

[/quote]

 

My point is that you seem fixated on the number of years that the pension people require and as I keep saying that is just part of it. How could paying be too much as you were still paying for your health care and everything else linked to your national insurance.  The pension bit is so little of the amount paid in as national insurance.

The pension part of national insurance is the best investment that anyone will make in their lives, I suppose the only trick is to stay alive and get it for five years and everyone will  have every penny back that they put in.

[/quote] The only reference I made about pensions was about ex-pats and the fact that their pensions are frozen, please explain to me what that comment has to do with NI payments. I  mentioned the length of time that I paid my contributions for, it had nothing  to do with pensions. The person with a fixation about pensions is you. 

[Quillan]

Seems to me it's quite simple really. If you apply for a S1 your going to be leaving the country for somewhere in the EU. You have to give a date for your departure after which your free use of the NHS stops.

On the subject of health care I always have a blood test every three months (in at 09:00 the next day and results after 14:00). I get a complete 'going over' by my cardiologist every year including a 'stress test', something I never had in the UK even though I have a couple of stents. Every time I visit my doctor I get my blood pressure checked and he gives me a good poke and prod plus a listen to my heart and lungs. Last time I had an MRI scan I had to wait two days and my doctor apologise for the delay, xrays and ultra sound is normally 48 hours and for all of these I walk away with the results and that's for none urgent stuff. I am very happy with the level of health care I receive in France, far better than I got in the UK.

[idun]

WOW I do not understand the french health service.  I had an MRI when I was ill and it was done via les urgences. My next one, well the earliest I could get was three months down the line and was told that I was lucky. My son needed one, he too had to wait for several months. My part of the Rhone Alpes often seemed at odds with other parts of France for waiting for many things.

I agree about most lab test results, next day, but, never the less, not all lab test results were so quick.

Xrays, well that depended, usually pretty quickly a day or two and as I would go to a cabinet, then one went home with the xrays and the letter for the doctor. I even saw the Dr  there once, called me in and to my surprise told me that I had a problem.

Why this disparity, was it because we had a bigger population in our part of the region?

 

 

[idun]

It ain't rocket science; and yes when I reached 65 I did mention to the authorities that I had paid more years than was required, they said tough. 

I didn't say that did I? Was it irony?