Very early stages - where to look

[Lulubel]

My partner and I are considering moving to France - considering pretty seriously - in a couple of years time.  The only time I've ever set foot in France is when we walked across the border on an Italian skiing holiday, and the only times my partner's been to France are a few camping holidays as a teenager.  But we feel it's time for a change, we're already as far south in the UK as we can get without falling in the sea, and we're always prepared for new adventures.

We're currently at the stage of poring over maps, studying regional and more local information, and trying to make a list of requirements, so we can make a list of places to visit and find out if we like the area.  I'm hoping if I post a list of our requirements so far, people who are already living in (or regularly visit) France can suggest areas that might be worth investigating.

Large village/small town location.  (We currently live on the outskirts of a small town - parish population around 3000 - and it's perfect.)

Beautiful countryside.  (The far west of Cornwall is a mixture of pretty farmland and rugged coastline, and we love it.)  I love mountains, but wouldn't want to live too high up because of the cold.  We also do a lot of walking and cycling.

"Nice" weather.  It needs to be mostly better than here.  (It doesn't get particularly cold here, but we can get days at a time when there's no hint of the sun, and that really gets us down.  It can also be quite wet.)  My ideal would be lots of sun and a short, bright winter, even if it does get cold.  Cold and bright is better than wet and foggy.

Community.  We're not worried about access to city facilities, such as high level arts and shops, but we do love community events such as fetes and festivals, and access to the work of local artists and crafts people.

I've been looking quite carefully at Languedoc-Roussillon, most particularly the Pyrenees Orientales because it seems to satisfy most of our requirements so far (at least on paper), but I'm sure there are other places we should be considering, so if anyone has any suggestions, they would be much appreciated.

[Cerise]

My suggestion.  Take every holiday you have from now on in France.  Try out different areas.  Hire cottage/flat in the town - try to find something that looks like the kind of house you can afford - and act as though you lived there.  Get food from local shops, make your meals, pop out to bar, watch the tele (French) read the local paper, and see how you feel about that area.  Being on holiday is not the same as being here full time, but if you time your holidays out of the main season i.e. November or February then you can get a feel what it is like to live somewhere.  No-one else can really tell you what it is like.  I lived in deepest rural Cornwall, but where I am (small rural village) is not really like that.    Make a list of the facilities/leisure amenities that are important to you, check whether there are clubs for your hobbies, doctor, dentist, vet, bank, post office - whatever you will need in real life - and see if your area matches up.

Anyone can like almost anywhere for 2 weeks in the summer, if you are having a good time and there are other people of your own nationality to talk to.  Alone in mid-winter when many things are shut may make you feel differently.

 

[Lulubel]

Thanks, Cerise.  Our plan was to make most of our visits out of season anyway, mostly for practical reasons, but also for the reasons you suggested.  (We always travel with our cats, and it's easier to have cats in the car when the weather's cooler than in mid-summer.)

Our hobbies are really quite solitary.  We like doing things together and, since rising fuel prices have made us cut down our car use, we don't go outside our own town and surrounding areas much, unless it's within cycling distance (which means we mostly walk, cycle and go to local and village events).  We have a few friends who we see now and then, usually for dinner and a couple of bottles of wine at each other's houses.

The only practical things I can see on your list that are hugely important are a post office (our business relies on posting things worldwide) and vet, although we're prepared to travel pretty much any distance for a good vet, regardless of the cost.  The only time either of us is likely to visit the doctor or dentist is in an emergency, and we do all our banking online.  We already try to shop locally as much as possible, and eat regional food that's in season.

We'll certainly be taking all our holidays in France from now on - the only thing that's holding us back from starting right away is getting the cats legal to travel.  But at the moment, we're barely past the "sticking a pin in the map" stage, and we don't want to start visiting places that are definitely not what we're looking for because checking out the whole of France will take a good few years, and we'd like to be moved before then.

[Baz]

I agree with Cerise comments and would like to add a couple of additional points. It is really essential if you do not speak French to learn the language before you go as it will be extremely difficult to integrate with out it. If a French job is part of your plan you will need to choose your location with extra care as unemployment is problem in France and fluency in the language will almost certainly be essential. Finally bear in mind that the pound has dropped against the Euro by about 20% in the last year so everything in France is much more expensive so waiting a couple of years may be a wise decision.

Baz

[cooperlola]

To get the kind of weather you're describing, you can certainly pretty much write off anywhere North of the Loire Valley for a start.  Although the summers are a little warmer and longer here in the Sarthe, the rainfall is pretty much on a par with the South EAST of England - ie less than Cornwall for sure, but not exactly dry!

It looks to me from your post that you are planning to run a business in France.  Those on here who do so estimate that you  lose around 50% of your profits in social welfare and healthcare contributions (known as "cotisations") so a bit of research into this might also influence your decision a little.

Bon courage and good hunting.

[Pierre ZFP]

You also dropped in those magic words 'online'  I kind of assume a broadband internet connection is essential for your business.  Bear in mind that it isn't available everywhere in France by any means and even where it is, it  can be very slowwwwwww. Might be worth checking out speeds with SFR for example when you find an area you like.

[Lulubel]

[quote user="Baz"]

It is really essential if you do not speak French to learn the language before you go as it will be extremely difficult to integrate with out it. If a French job is part of your plan you will need to choose your location with extra care as unemployment is problem in France and fluency in the language will almost certainly be essential.

[/quote]

We've already thought about learning the language, which is very important to us, and plan to be as close to fluent as we can be (without living in France) before we move.  I may be looking to get a job, and hope my PCV (bus) licence will be useful to me if I do, although we're hoping our business will support us.  (It already does in the UK, but we're both working as well to save up as much money as we can to pay for the move and transition period.)  If I do have to get a job, I'm hoping it won't be within the first year because we'll have enough savings to make up any shortfall in income, and by that time I will have had plenty of time to practice speaking French.

[Lulubel]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

To get the kind of weather you're describing, you can certainly pretty much write off anywhere North of the Loire Valley for a start.  Although the summers are a little warmer and longer here in the Sarthe, the rainfall is pretty much on a par with the South EAST of England - ie less than Cornwall for sure, but not exactly dry!

[/quote]

That's really helpful.  Thanks.

[quote user="cooperlola"]

It looks to me from your post that you are planning to run a business in France.  Those on here who do so estimate that you  lose around 50% of your profits in social welfare and healthcare contributions (known as "cotisations") so a bit of research into this might also influence your decision a little.

[/quote]

That's also useful to know.  How do they calculate profit in France?  (I mean, is it what's left before or after you deduct your own salary? Or are "profit" and your personal salary considered the same thing?)  We already do all we can in the UK to keep as much of our money as possible, but I think achieving the same thing in France will be a steep learning curve, and probably require the services of a professional, at least until we work out what we're doing.

[Lulubel]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]You also dropped in those magic words 'online'  I kind of assume a broadband internet connection is essential for your business.  Bear in mind that it isn't available everywhere in France by any means and even where it is, it  can be very slowwwwwww. Might be worth checking out speeds with SFR for example when you find an area you like.[/quote]

Yes, that's really important to us.  I guess I was just assuming that as long as we're fairly near a town we'd be OK, but that's obviously not the case.  I've just looked at the SFR website, and my limited French has got me to a page where I can test my line to find out what offers are available, but that relies on me having a French phone number (and probably better French to understand the answer, unless it's as simple as "8Gb", for example).  Can anyone provide me with a link to check by area?

[Pierre ZFP]

Near a largish town you you probably be ok but no certainties.  You need a phone number to 'plug in' to get the speed so you could use a shop or business near to where you had in mind or use the 'white pages' to find a neighbour with a phone and use that. Not guaranteed to be entirly accurate but you'll have an idea.  The replies are very easy to understand.

by '8Gb' I assume you mean '8Mbit'

You'll be dancing in the streets if you find more than 2Mbit in most places!  I'm 40 Kms from Calais and would be struggling to get 400Kbit

[cooperlola]

Lulubel, I know absolutely nothing about running a business in France, but the cotisations question comes up a lot on here (there are a variety of ways to set up a business - each of which appears to have its pros and cons in terms of how much the cotis are) as people struggle to decide which is the best route for them so you could do a search.  But this thread:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1237524/ShowPost.aspx

is a good example of what I mean!  You certainly would be very sensible to take professional advice as from the little I know (most of it gleaned from here) it's a minefield (as are most things bureaucratic in France...[Www])

[Lulubel]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]

Near a largish town you you probably be ok but no certainties.  You need a phone number to 'plug in' to get the speed so you could use a shop or business near to where you had in mind or use the 'white pages' to find a neighbour with a phone and use that. Not guaranteed to be entirly accurate but you'll have an idea.  The replies are very easy to understand.

by '8Gb' I assume you mean '8Mbit'

You'll be dancing in the streets if you find more than 2Mbit in most places!  I'm 40 Kms from Calais and would be struggling to get 400Kbit

[/quote]

Yes, I was getting my Ms and Gs mixed up!!  Those numbers are quite shocking.  We're getting "up to" (the magic words ISPs use) 8Mb at the moment, and we still complain how slow it is at peak times.  We'll have to test it out by using internet cafes (assuming France has them), and if it's too slow I guess we'll go for satellite internet.  It's a bit of an expense, but at least it's a business expense.

[Lulubel]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Lulubel, I know absolutely nothing about running a business in France, but the cotisations question comes up a lot on here (there are a variety of ways to set up a business - each of which appears to have its pros and cons in terms of how much the cotis are) as people struggle to decide which is the best route for them so you could do a search.  But this thread:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1237524/ShowPost.aspx

is a good example of what I mean!

[/quote]

Thanks for that.  It makes interesting reading.  I'll take my business questions to the relevant forum because they're starting to get very complicated now, and I don't want to fill this thread with unrelated stuff.

Someone mentioned not looking north of the Loire if we want "decent" (according to our definition) weather.  Where does the Loire actually go?  And is Poitou-Charentes too far north?  (I'm getting an interest in Deux-Sevres, and thinking it would make for a shorter journey time for our first trip than Pyrenees-Orientales.)

[cooperlola]

The Loire begins on the West coast around Nantes (the nearest big city - so easiest to spot on a map) and runs roughly Eastwards.  As a quick guide - it's about a third of the way down.

[sunny]

Lulu,

Around Toulouse might be an option.  Pretty good weather, and decent internet connection in many places in the broader region.  I would provide a bit of a different perspective regarding language.  I think it would help a lot to know Fench, but if you are going to run an internet business to UK/worldwide customers, I don't think you have to be fluent before you get to France.

You might want to consider options for having your business registered in the UK/elsewhere in a proper, legal way, so as to avoid France bureaucracy and taxes (if possible!)

Have a great time looking and enjoy the search process!

[Cerise]

Yes Toulouse region may be good (we're just a bit North of there ourselves) but do watch the broadband thing.  I have ADSL (broadband) but my friends 3km away don't.  If you tested the public computers in library you would find ADSL but over the river there is none for the forseeable future.  Best way is to ask at the mairie of any commune that interests you. 

Also regarding 'posting things', I have found that post is more expensive and post offices open infrequently.  If this is important to your business make sure that it is open every day at least and that they will accept the kind of things you want to post.  Local firms seem to rely more on transporters(in varying degrees of good and bad!).

The southern half of the Aveyron, the Lot, or the Tarn and Garonne might suit the climate you describe.

[Pads]

Hi Lulubel

Here is a link to local info around Carcassonne. Which is East of Toulouse. I find a lot of this area very simular to life in Cornwall, just warmer.

If you google Carcassonne you will find a lot more information. There is Broadband in the area , but that will depend on the area you choose .

If you want any more info and I can help .... just call.

Click on the "regions and activies " button on the left .. 

  http://www.carcassonneinfo.com/frame2.php?nom1=Domaine%20de%20Palatz&lang=en&url=www.domainedepalatz.com

Sorry I know nothing about work or starting a business. But I can tell you about the walking and countryside

http://www.carcassonne.org/Carcassonne_EN.nsf/vueTitre/docVisiterAccueil1?opendocument&EN&Visiter&%20&0&&Informations%20pratiques

[cooperlola]

[quote user="BP"]

You might want to consider options for having your business registered in the UK/elsewhere in a proper, legal way, so as to avoid France bureaucracy and taxes (if possible!)

[/quote]Nice idea but a DEFINATE no-no, I'm afraid.  One thing I know for sure is that you pay taxes and social security where the work is carried out.

[Ian]

Coops is quite right. The only ways to avoid "French bureaucracy" is to not trade/work here. If your company is incorprated in the UK you will either have to commute (cheapish with ryan air and easyjet if you do settle between Carcassonne and Toulouse) or employ a wonderful manager (management team?) to keep it running in your absence.  Both are possible.

Avoiding the taxes will prove to be even harder - once you are resident here you will be obliged to pay tax. (even if that is on dividend income from a British company).

It sounds like you are going about the whole process in a sensible way Lulu.

Is the weather the only reasaon to move?  I'd guess Cornwall offers much of what else you are looking for.  Would you want to be in striking distance of the sea?

As well as Toulouse-Carcassonne (incidently where I have lived for the last 4 years) consider Nimes - Nice too. And Corsica. If you don't mind some rain have a look over in the Basque country around Biarritz.  Its a big area - but you will often get a "definite no" feeling about somewhere quite quickly...and likewise a "definite maybe" that tells you to delve deeper.

It's got to feel right and offer you all the logical practicalities too.

Good luck - exciting isn't it?!

[Owens88]

[quote user="Cerise"]

Anyone can like almost anywhere for 2 weeks in the summer.........................Alone in mid-winter when many things are shut may make you feel differently.

[/quote]

 

This is an even more acute point in France than Britain. Not only will you not have the easy 'fallbacks' of F&F (and Pubs and UK TV !) that you have in Britain but the French villages have much more acute peaks and troughs of 'life' than in the UK.

 

We searched the Canal du Midi area extensivelly looking for soemthing that suited us, but everything that fitted the 'physical/budget'constraints fell down on life  ?  In fact I now think that only 'towns' in that area would suit us.

 

Eventually we settled for Languedoc Roussillon (Vernet les Bains) Great views, year-round village life, varaiety of options from beach to skiing etc.

Good luck

 

p.s. I believe that you would get good internet connection around Vernet, cheaper than UK.

[Sprogster]

As advised by previous posters, I would spend every holiday you have in France over the next two years experiencing all the seasons, as most places look very different in the dead of winter and many areas of France have colder winters than Cornwall.

Also, most importantly take professional advice as to the economics of relocating your business to France at the earliest opportunity, as if the figures don't stack up then presumably your move is a non starter, if you cannot make an adequate living.

You will find that most members on this site are retirees, or early retirees who have savings and pension income to support them, as France is not exactly the land of opportunity for young entrepeneurs!  I would take the time to compare with other countries like Canada, who are actively trying to attract more Brits at the moment.  

[Ian]

[quote user="Sprogster"]

You will find that most members on this site are retirees, or early retirees who have savings and pension income to support them, as France is not exactly the land of opportunity for young entrepeneurs! 

[/quote]

Sprogster is right, France isn't a Tiger Economy and the lack of easy credit, regulations and restrictions will put off (or put out of work)  many of your competitors. 

I don't know the figures but I'd guess the success rate for new businesses in France is around the same as the UK. Albeit rather more Brits probably try going it alone in the UK than the cautious French do here.  (Even in those wild-west-free-for-all econonies one reads about, the vast majority of business go to the wall).

France certainly isn't the right place to begin a business on "the off chance" it will work.  Fly-by-nights and speculative dreamers need not apply. 

That said if you have a successful track record of self-employment, have investors/finance in place, have the right product/service and marketing ability (and appropriate language skills) then it is perfectly feasible that YOU will be a success. 

The fact that young millionaire entrepreneurs are thin on the ground in this forum doesn't mean they don't exist here in France [:)]

[Sprogster]

Your right Ian, there are successful millionaire French entrepeneurs, but they seem increasingly to move to other countries like Switzerland, or the UK to benefit from the non dom rules. Only recently, Alan Ducasse France's most famous celebrity chef, announced he was revoking his French nationality and moving to Monaco.

One main reason being the infamous French wealth tax, where you are taxed on all your capital assets over a certain value, regardless of any income or gains. Apparently, President NS wants is commited to abolish it, especially after Spain abolished theirs, leaving France as the only European country with this regressive tax. However, this now looks unlikely in the current political and economic climate, although there are moves in French government to exempt your principle residence.  

[vervialle]

What a breath of fresh air this post is, it makes such a change from some, who see France through rose tinted specs, its lovely to see someone doing there homework and actually responding to answers from those with experience,and taking it all on board.Judging by the response you are all like minded.The enthusiasm in the post is infectious.

[Llantony]

If you've never been to France, I wonder why you decided to move there - apart from it being the nearest country to England?  There may be other countries you've never been to that you'd like better!

Having said that, I think it's a good choice for many people.

Learning the language is very important if you want to get the most of out living in France.  To become really fluent before you move there would take a huge amount of time and effort.  I know lots of British people in France who are trying to learn  but are nowhere near having a real conversation as they don't know the grammar (which of course is the boring, difficult bit).

It might be worth going on one of those holidays where they give intensive French tuition.  Then just talk to as many French people as possible, they are generally very helpful.

Our house is in Tarn & Garonne and the weather generally seems better than the UK - but not this year!

Good luck - it's exciting to make a new start in a different country