Income tax - advice needed, please

[val douest]

We are about to make our first income tax declaration in France and due to a number of unexpected events find ourselves up against the year-end deadline. We went down to our local Hotel des Impots today and because of the approaching cut off date it was somewhat like a zoo. We were sent away with a Form 2042 and told to complete the first page, plus Form 2047 to complete in its entirety. No other help offered, no English spoken,just "Next please", so we have been working on the forms with average French, dictionaries etc.

We are retired, with no income in France and our major income is from my husband's pension as a UK scientific civil servant: this we understand from all sources can only be taxed in the UK. This and our other income (two very small annuities, my 25% state pension and a little savings income) is currently taxed in the UK and we have the paperwork to prove it. I gather that all except the Govt pension should now be taxed here as we are French residents (since Jan 2004). We have filled out most of 2047 but there does not seem to be anywhere where we can tell them that the Govt pension is exactly that and so can only be taxed in the UK. If we are taxed again on our income and have to reclaim through Paris then we could cope with the interim double whammy as long as they didn't try to retax the main pension. Has any one else been in this position - if so any help much appreciated. Would a covering letter to Paris be the best way to deal with it? Or maybe I should go back down to the Tax Office when the rush to be on time has died down and see if I can find someone who will help - better to be a few days late and get it right than bung it in incomplete or full of mistakes.

Also - the inside pages of 2047 consist of three columns entitled

Dividendes, Interets and Jetons de Presence. Is this where we declare other UK income (eg interest on savings). If so, what do the percentages and indices against Royaume Uni mean? And the back page (admittedly at 11pm) just has my head swimming!

At this point my husband has given up and is muttering darkly about never having realised it would be so complicated, why did we move etc etc and I feel a major row on the horizon so if anyone could help fill in the gaps I would be extremely grateful. If we can sort it this time and are in the system I feel it will be relatively plain sailing so I really want to persevere and get it right.

[Ron Avery]

Look at the thread 7 posts down, help is available.   I have had the following guidance from the tax advisor Les (Derf)  recommended.

You need to fill in 2047 first .  The basics are that your savings interest goes in column 5 of section 2 and then do the calculation at the bottom and put the total in box TS. You then carry this over to section 2 of form 2042 and enter it in box TS.

For "state" pensions you have to fill in heading VII on 2047,
and then form 2042 heading 8 box TI. (This is for pensions that are exonerated from French tax)

If you have a UK "Civil Service" type  pension, it must be declared in France but you will not pay tax on it, it will always be taxed in the UK.

Any other questions try the link on Les's post in the thread about form 2042

[Jackie]

If it is of any help this is what the accountant did last year and previous years. I have no idea if it is right but this is what he did.

Form 2047-K

Front page: Pensions, Retraites, Rentes Total of any pension and annuity not taxed in the     UK for "Vous" and the same for "conjoint" (If you have already paid UK tax on these you should be able to claim it back from the Inland Revenue in the UK)

Third page Col 5 Royaume-Uni Building Soc interest repeated same col at bottom Totaux    and in A below that and in TS. TA for total of any tax paid in the UK on say a Govt pension

Fourth page section VII Gross pension (Govt) in col 4 and in Total de chaque colonne below this in col 4. Tax paid (in the UK) col 5. Difference between these ie Net pension in col 4 bottom box. 

Form 2042 Pensions, Retraites, Rentes AS and BS same as front page of 2047 for pension/annuity not taxed in UK

Just under this section 2 TS Building Society interest (again).

Page 4 Autres Imputations etc Box TI Net Govt pension amount (again) 

We also had 2042C Last page at bottom Box TA tax paid on Govt pension in the UK (again).

Also form 3916 for details of any UK bank account. Just completed section 1 and 2 for Name and address and on the second page wrote Voir annexe jointe and signed at the bottom and clipped a piece of paper to it with the names and addresses of UK banks/Building Societies and account numbers and names of account holders.

You can download these forms from http://www.impots.gouv.fr if you can get in, very busy yesterday. No idea if any of this is right but it worked for us over the last three years. Probably won’t this year just because I am doing it myself!…………………………………………………………..John

 

 

 

[val douest]

Many thanks John and Ron for the very helpful advice and links. Does anyone know the number of the form (which apparently we have to ask for from the Centre des Impôts des non-résidents in Paris) and which requests the UK government to refund tax already paid?. I shall have a go at downloading Form 3916 when the impôts site is accessible again. Also 2042C which we apparently need if we have paid tax in the UK which needs to be set off against French tax.

I am still a bit confused as to the difference between pensions and annuities. I had thought that annuities are taxed in a different way (less heavily) in France, the exact percentage depending on age. Therefore (having ploughed through the covering note in the instructions) I thought these should be listed under 'Rentes viagères à titre onéreux'. But maybe not? I seem to remember this came up in a previous thread not long ago so I will try to find it.

Meanwhile, thanks again to you both,

Val

[Jackie]

We rang up the centre for Non-residents in the UK and they sorted out the forms we needed. The web site for more information is:

http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/cnr/

Tel: 00 44 151 210 2222

Sorry don't know about the treatment of an annuity by the French tax man as I had assumed that it was treated as if it were a private pension but would be interested to hear if this is not so.............................John  

[Ron Avery]

Val

You are in danger of getting totally confused, you do not need half the forms that you are being told for the return that you need to do.  All you need is 2042 and 2047.  If you have questions, ask like I did :

[email protected] 

This is what I received about pensions:

State (public service) pensions are taxable in UK:: Private (other) pensions are taxable in France.

For state pensions you have to fill in form 2047 ( pink) heading VII
and then form 2042 heading 8 box TI

For private pensions   you have to fill in form 2047 ( pink) heading 1  point "pensions"  and heading VIII form 2042 ( blue) heading 1  point "pensions"  and heading  8 box TL .  The amounts are declared without UK tax

For private pensions, if tax has been already been deducted under the PAYE system, you can reclaim the income tax. You will have to complete form FD5   from the UK Inland revenue and send it to the tax inspector.

If you have a private pension, you MUST fill in box TL on 2042, if you do not, your return will be incomplete.

[val douest]

Thanks for all the additional help. The infotax-southwest people sound useful, Ron, I and I shall certainly e-mail them a couple of supplementary questions re the returns themselves before we commit them to the postbox in the Hotel des Impots.

Regarding the annuities, John, there is some useful info in a previous posting: I just entered 'rentes viageres' in the 'search this forum' box and the various refs came up. It appears that bought annuities are treated differently (preferentially) to state or private pensions, with special allowances depending on age, and this is confirmed in the Parkinson 'Taxation in France' Guide. And many thanks for the Inland revenue international website reference. I think we can get all the reclaim/exemption forms we need from them: for some reason it never dawned on me to look to the UK end for help!

[zeb]

Does anyone know the exchange rate to use for converting sterling into euros on the tax form?

Eureka! £1=1,41834 euro (it was on the other impots thread)

Can finish my return now and put it through their door!

[Mikew]

At Ruffec(16) we were instructed to use 1.47 to calculate how many euros to enter onto the tax forms.

Don't forget 4th is the last day for filing!!!

[Miki]

Not here in the guinea pig department of the 35 it isn't!!