Taxe Locale D'Equipement

[Pumpkin]

Having just got up from the floor having received a tax bill for 5237 euros somebody please help me and tell me I'm not going to have to pay this!

It is from tresor Public and 2277 is for the taxe locale d'equipement, 683 for taxe dep. pour le C.A.U.E and 2277 for taxe des espaces naturels sensibles.

I have read in a book that TLE does not apply to renovation of an existing building or change of use ie a barn which is what we are in the process of doing.

Anyone any ideas please!!

This is a big bombshell obviously that is completely unexpected.

 

[Teamedup]

I had thought that the change of use from a barn to a house meant that this had to be paid.

 

You are not the only one who has got this unexpected bill. I remember suddenly finding myself short of breath when ours came. It literally took my breath away, I hadn't budged for it and as I had asked the people who built for us, the bank where we got our mortgage, and our notaire at least 10 times if there would be any bills that we didn't know about as we weren't french and they all said no.

 

 

[Clair]

[quote]I have read in a book that TLE does not apply to renovation of an

existing building or change of use ie a barn which is what we are in

the process of doing.[/quote]That's not where you should get your reference regarding taxes...

My first point of info would be the urbanisme/equipement government's website.

It says the TLE is automatic if you live in a town of over 10k inhabitants or the decision is made by your Conseil Municipal.

It is generated by the approval of your demande de permis de construire.

More basic details (in French) here.

It applies to the building, rebuilding or enlargement of all buildings.

Automatic exemptions are made for buildings for social, public or religious use and other exemptions can be authorised by the same Conseil Municipal for buildings used for "social rental" or agricultural use.

I cannot find any mention of exemption for change of use of agricultural building.

Although this might not be as up-to-date, you'll find more basic detail (in French) here

[Pumpkin]

Thanks for the replies. The property itself size wise has not changed or been rebuilt merely renovated albeit the barns attached to the house are being converted to living space. I appreciate the book is not the best place to take info from but it is written in 2004. I will need to enquire with the relevant authority and then rob a bank! Has anyone else who's renovated had to pay this?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

This is a standard tax for renovations. We've paid it on two renovated

properties - around here at least it is levied over several years. The

DDE (I believe) are the responsible body for setting the rate and do so

based on the area being made habitable. I recall that the amount due

was advised at the same time that planning permission was granted and a

form included that had to be returned once work was completed. The

canton is the recipient of the cash.

[michelin79]

You've just got up off the floor Pumpkin - well, so have I !  I've been following forums such as this and read many books on moving to France over several years and I'm sure that I've never seen a mention of this before. I had to double check that this thread hadn't been started 14 days previously.

I am gob-smacked. This could be a life changing event for me but I suppose it's better to find out now than further down the track.

Mike

[Teamedup]

It has been mentioned on here, in fact it was mentioned very recently.

 

[Pumpkin]

Oh dear appears I'll have to pay then! Another book again! but I have also read that you can be eligible for exemption from the taxe Fonciere for the first 2-3 years if renovating, is this true? When does this bill come out? as I haven't had one yet. Perhaps if I didn't have to pay this it might go towards this bill!

This now means my return to England for 12 months to work to fund the rest of the renovations will now be considerably longer.

[Teamedup]

It could well mean an excemption from Taxe Fonciere for a couple of years. This is what happened to us, but we had known that this was what happened with a new build, so weren't counting that into our plans anyway and it in no way covered the payment of this extra tax.

[fulcrum]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

It has been mentioned on here, in fact it was mentioned very recently.

 

[/quote]

Is there some kind of a Forum Sticky, that is

available, that mentions this. It seems it should be up there in flashing red

lights for anyone proposing to develop a property in France.

[Teamedup]

I must confess that I am now confused have looked over on the other thread about budgeting. I thought that this was a sort of 'planning tax'. Is it? I thought that  the espace verte tax was what has become to be known as  the planning tax on here.

We had, as far as I can remember to pay in two installments, but the first was more or less immediately, mais, it was a long time ago when we had ours.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

I must confess that I am now confused have

looked over on the other thread about budgeting. I thought that this

was a sort of 'planning tax'. Is it? I thought that  the espace

verte tax was what has become to be known as  the planning tax on

here.

We had, as far as I can remember to pay in two installments, but the

first was more or less immediately, mais, it was a long time ago when

we had ours.

[/quote]

Ours was in three lots, the first (and largest) payment due one year

after declared completion of the works. I dan't recall any exemption

from taxe foncière, though.

[Marie]

Ours was payable in 2 installments - the first about 6 months after completion and the second 12 months later.  The cost was about €5000, payable in 50% chunks - not that it made it any easier to find the money, as no-one had told us anything about this tax.  However, we were exempt from taxe foncière for 2 years.  Given that the taxe foncière is only about €150, it isn't much to offset against the huge planning tax bill!

 

Marie

[Teamedup]

When we built the exemption from Taxe Fonciere was for new builds for a couple of years. AND if someone had taken a Pret PAP for a new build, then they had an excemption for 15 years from taxe fonciere.

We looked into doing this, but a PAP loan was only for a percentage of the amount one needed to borrow, maybe about 80% and we would have had to have another loan for the difference and interest rates being as they were then, it just was not interesting for us to do it.

[Pumpkin]

As we all know with renovations to suddenly have a bill like this even if it can be paid in 2 installments over the next 2 years is an incredible drain on an already diminished budget. Having looked at the rear and explanatory notes it would appear that having been granted planning permission this kindly makes you eligible for this tax. It states you are eligible on construction, reconstruction and enlargement of buildings of all types. It doesn't however mention renovation. It seems a really mean and hefty tax half of which is levied by the commune when you have taken a derilict building and renovated it to the benefit of the commune to then have to give all this money. If you ask me they should be paying us the money! to help with the renovations! I think I need to try and plead my case but can only imagine I will still have to pay!

[BJSLIV]

As I explained on the other post

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/660207/ShowPost.aspx

You don't pay the taxes on a renovation!. However if you are converting or extending them you will be liable.

Its a well known set of taxes that always seem to come as a surprise!

However I am a bit surprised by the size of Pumpkin's bill, as the rate of tax is usually pretty low. To be so high they must have a combination of maison secondaire and a fairly large property, or to be unfortunate to live in one of the relatively few areas that charge a higher rate.

 

[Owens88]

So, it is not a renovation tax it is a 'change of use' tax ?

[Pumpkin]

Am I correct in thinking then that because the conversion of the barns is to habitable space to be used as my principle residence I am liable for this tax?

I have a small house that is being renovated that has 2 barns attached to it that are being converted to habitable space. There will be access to the barns from the small house.

If you convert a barn to a gite are you still liable? ( not that we will be doing as there are too many already!)

Is there any way round this tax?!

And to anyone else out there my advice for what it's worth DON'T BUY A BARN!

[BJSLIV]

Any habitable space is liable to the tax. As for gites I expect that they would normally attract the higher rates applied to maisons secondaire!.

Barns conversions have never been cheap. Thye can cost a similar or greater amount than new build. I would guess that at todays prices, all in,  you need to allow £500 to £1000 per sq metre.

[just john]

We have a small property for renovation and an attached barn which we intend to convert and include as part of the existing property. So, if when we apply and receive planning permis, then receive this tax demand, is there a time frame we need to complete the works in? or a period after which the tax becomes due whether or not the work is complete?
Does anyone know what the position is if we start to use part of the accommodation whilst we are still working on the other parts of conversion or renovation?

[:-))] sunscreen and something stronger required [:)]

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

As for gites I expect that they would normally attract the higher rates applied to maisons secondaire!.

[/quote]

It depends. If you are registered as a business then the rate is

discounted. If the gîte is just some additional income then it would be

treated as a  maison secondaire.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="john and sue"]

We

have a small property for renovation and an attached barn which we

intend to convert and include as part of the existing property. So, if

when we apply and receive planning permis, then receive this tax

demand, is there a time frame we need to complete the works in? or a

period after which the tax becomes due whether or not the work is

complete?

Does anyone know what the position is if we start

to use part of the accommodation whilst we are still working on

the other parts of conversion or renovation?

[:-))] sunscreen and something stronger required [:)]

[/quote]

As I recall, the permis is valid for two years and work should be

commenced within that time. I don't think that there is any compulsion

to complete the works in a prescribed time frame, but it is incumbant

upon you to notify promptly once the work is complete. They check, and

the penalties are stiff. The tax is only due to be calculated once the

work is complete. On your last point, I have no idea, I'm afraid.

[BJSLIV]

It depends. If you are registered as a business then the rate is discounted. If the gîte is just some additional income then it would be treated as a  maison secondaire.

I'm not sure that is the case. The reduced rate specifically applies to maisons principales, "other" habitations , and even a maison principale larger than 170 sq metres will attract the higher penal rate.

The payments are due 18 mths, and 36 mths after the permit is issued, irrespective of whether the work has been completed. We had to pay ours even though we couldn't use the house because the mains drains promised by the council were a year late. The only way you can avoid payment is if you can show that the work has not, and will no longer be starting within the two year period. Oh and they do check!

[The Riff-Raff Element]

"It depends. If you are registered as a

business then the rate is discounted. If the gîte is just some

additional income then it would be treated as a  maison secondaire.

I'm not sure that is the case. The reduced

rate specifically applies to maisons principales, "other" habitations ,

and even a maison principale larger than 170 sq metres will attract the

higher penal rate."

Maybe it's a regional thing...the second barn

we did (180m2 habitable) was started and completed after we had been

fully badged up as a business, and this attracted a far lower rate of

tax than the first, which was started whilst we were still UK resident.

I can't check the full details because the file for that year lives

with our accountant...mind you, we do agree (I think) on two very

important aspects:

1) You can't get out of paying it, and;

2) They do check!