Climate Change

[Quillan]

[quote user="Mr Disenfranchised"]

I believe there is a theory that the biggest pollutant is actually the combined greenhouse effect caused by human flatulence. 

[/quote]

Funny enough..........

Actually one theory is that we can partially (which is what Carl Wunsch said) ignore Co2 because it's not the main cause but humans are creating the problem because there are too many of us. The population expansion in general and particularly in the last 100 years globally has been massive.

Humans give off heat, if you talk to a air conditioning engineer he will tell you that the quantity of humans in a room and the coming and goings of others have a large effect on the size of plant needed to keep the room at a constant temperature. You could in fact add a/c in to the equation as well because as we know to keep a room or building cold it has to dump the heat somewhere and it's usually outside. Likewise people who live in cold areas heat their buildings and some of this escapes.

Cars give off a large amount of heat as well as anything that burns a fuel of any description. There are in fact loads of things that give of heat. Considering we are talking about a 1.8 deg rise that is causing the problem perhaps it would not be so stupid to ignore this theory. I am not saying that it's the total cause of the temperature rise but it may be worth giving some serious thought to.

What I would say is that I believe here is a grand conspiracy amongst those who signed to Kyoto agreement, who are primarily members of the G8 except for the Americans of course. I think it’s down to money, not in correcting what has been done but insuring that American, Chinese and other G8 members industry is not undermined by India and Africa both of whom want to industrialise in a big way and will be producing high quality goods at an exceptionally low price. They are effectively being banned from industrialising which means they will never escape being third world countries. Of course it also allows our governments to rip us off even further with large tax increases.

You could try reading Michael Crichtons State of Fear. Although only fiction it has some novel ideas about how we are being manipulated by global warming and terrorism.

 

[powerdesal]

My personal opinion on the actions that should be taken are:-

Build nuclear power plants.

Expand research into nuclear fusion technology.

Utilise waste heat recovery systems on existing power plants to maximise thermal efficiency.

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate. There is absolutely no point in using energy for heating / cooling and then wasting it.

Governments should give SUBSTANTIAL grants for domestic and industrial insulation and free issue to the poorest members of society.

Actively encourage recycling, not by taxation of those who dont but by rewarding those who do (carrot not stick situation as mentioned earlier in this thread)

Legistlate to force manufacturers to reduce / simplify the packaging of products.

Research the use of more efficient vehicles ( high mpg diesels, hybrids, sterling engine etc)

There are probably lots more that can be thought of but, my point is that is doesn't actually matter if or why global warming is or is not happening, reduction of energy use benefits everyone. If it saves you money you will do it, if it costs you (the individual) then you are much less likely to take any action.

In Government terms it means 'leading' not 'driving' , 'persuading 'not 'forcing', (back to the carrot / stick again).

Get the mass of people on side by education, dont alienate them by taxation.

[AnOther]

As if Climate Change isn't enough to worry about along come more apocalyptic predictions:

http://www.culturewars.org.uk/2004-01/rees.htm

Someone pass me the barbiturates please, oh and don't bother turning the lights off, I'll not be here to pay the bill.....................[blink]

[Deimos]

[quote user="powerdesal"]...

my point is that is doesn't actually matter if or why global warming is or is not happening, reduction of energy use benefits everyone

...
[/quote]

I think the "cause" is quite important as some people seem to want to be able to munch their way through the world's limited resources with a clear conscience. As we have seen in this and similar threads after a bit of time (or number of posts) you start getting the "I've earnt my money and will spend it how I want ..." type of comments. Those arguing about the natural/man made are totally missing the point about balance and feedback. Of course it is part natural and part man made and debating be balance is a great distraction used by people to delay actually doing anything. Scientists mainly agree that when greenhouse gasses are added to the atmosphere the climate will change (both those in the program and those who were not included). The human population is currently adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere. At best this is contributing and at worst causing. Debate away and whilst people are denying its anything to do with us we can watch the world "go down the toilet" (but we wont be around to thank those who decided that they could just continue eating their way through our limited resources).

I would make a more reasoned post but have learnt that some here are great believers in the "bad science" and will argue that black is white - just as long as they can continue their life style unaffected by a moral responsibility.

Ian

[Quillan]

The point is that we are constantly told that it's the greenhouse effect and that’s it's man made Co2 that’s the problem which it isn't. There is natural change and it's being speeded up by humans but lay it all on us is both not warranted and not correct.

I think Steves point are very much in line with mine but of course the 'green' people would certainly disapprove of nuclear power yet as France proves by being one of the smallest Co2 producers in Europe that it (nuclear power) is environmentally friendly. Ok so we burry the small amount of highly toxic leftovers but we are talking about a very small amount. Personally I would be more worried about the amount of plastic bags we bury every year.

Most people are aware of their environment, the do recycle where they can, they use low energy lamp bulbs, they buy a shopping bag instead of getting new disposable ones every time they visit the supermarket. Why don't the greens do useful things like raise money to develop alternatives, picket supermarkets and force them in to using paper bags instead of plastic (they can be recycled in to many more thinks). All we get is doom and gloom instead of alternatives.

As Steve says give people incentives don't bully them which is why so many of us hoot for joy when the greens get the carpet taken from under them. It's even better when you get a co founder of Green Peace agreeing although he is probably and ex now.

Ernie – How about drinking oneself to death on a tropical island (Isle of White perhaps in 10 years time [:D] ) , with nice wine, nice women and good company.

 

[powerdesal]

Deimos,

You appear to have missed the points made in my post.

Your quote from me is taken completely out of context.

If it read ".... my point is that as we are causing global warming everyone should reduce their energy consumption to combat the problem..." I imagine you would agree, however it would not change the gist of my post at all.

[Deimos]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Deimos,

You appear to have missed the points made in my post.

Your quote from me is taken completely out of context.

[/quote]

Sorry. I was using it as more of an "introduction" to the thing about people claiming it was "natural" and thus we can keep burning all the fuel we want, etc. as it is "not our fault".

Drive a car without brakes over the brow of a steep hill and as you plunge downwards you can debate all you like as to whether you increasing speed is a natural phenomenon (gravity) or not. Truth is you were daft not to have stopped earlier. However, as you accelerate downhill your time would be better spent finding ways to slow down rather than keeping your foot hard on the accelerator and saying "its all gravity anyway".

I have found this site to be quite an "eye opener" in regard to Global Warming and now appreciate how the human race will not find any answers.

Ian

[Quillan]

So in your view it's all to do with humans, nothing to do with natural changes and we all are totally and utterly to blame.

All I ever read is that we shouldn't even have a car in the first place and that cars should have so much tax put on them that only the rich can afford them the rest of us can just do without. In which case we never have to worry about being in a car going down hill with no brakes do we.

If you can find me a car that I can fuel by another means that does nor effect the environment in the ways ecologists would have us believe with has power source that I can get my hands on at no extra cost to buying a petrol or diesel powered car I will have one.

All that has been said is that those scientists that have dared to offer an alternative view are wrong. No real alternatives have been offered and those that have cost so much money that they are beyond the general public. Also there is a distinct reluctance or inability to answer questions by people who have a different view. Still it's nice to see that those living in the UK will now officially (TB made and announcement today - ITV1 News at 11:00 today) have their rubbish collected every other week to help reduce global warming and FORCE people to re-cycle. Bet the people who have to live with smelly rubbish are well pleased.

I think your right about the human race but it's probably because we will have all been driven mad.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Quillan"]

So in your view it's all to do with humans, nothing to do with natural changes and we all are totally and utterly to blame.

[/quote]

Which brilliantly illustrates the problem. Some people are more concerned with debating the "natural" or "out fault". I said nothing about it being all to do with humans but why let that stop a good "headline".

Those who like to debate rather than act need to look at things in more detail than the brief summary popular articles. Things like feedback and delays play an important part i the process of what is currently happening. As with my car analogy, something can be started by humans but then maintained (or contributed to) by natural means. Sometimes the natural feedback can be strong enough to maintain/accelerate the process once the original factors have been removed. Same with animal populations and a whole load of natural things.

But with some people you can debate forever and get nowhere as they have made up their minds and are not open to other opinions - which is why I cannot be bothered to debate the issues here.

Ian

[Quillan]

Right OK then so we are saying that as humans we started it during the industrial revolution and added to it after the war. But now we don't have coal gas (I remember the smog when I was a kid), steam trains no steel industry in fact we have hardly any industry that lets of large amounts of Co2 except power stations that burn coal (the UK is just about to have a new coal fired super station build by a German company). So all that has gone and nature has taken over and that’s why the temperature is rising?

This film has been the first serious film to question what we are being told and it is effectively being jumped on. I rather think that Green Peace and other large organizations like Friends of the Earth have had far more headlines than this film or anyone who questions what we are being told. Any individual who has spoken out has been ridiculed by the press. I think the film in question produced facts and made people aware that there are many, many, scientists who disagree with what we are being brainwashed with and that’s what’s stopping people from debating because the greens don't have a valid answer.