Filling out Tax Form 2047

[Philip]

Can any one help me. It's my first tax declaration and I don't understand what to put in sections 6,7,8 of the 2047 form. I've recently moved here and my income from 2017 was earnt in the UK. I have no investment, pensions whatsoever. Is filling out section 6, 7, 8 necessary. In fact I don't even understand it, I speak/read good French but it seems like jargon. Help!

In advance

[minnie]

Since this is your first declaration presumably you have the hard copies and not on-line. Most tax offices have a day when they have somebody to help the new British residents to complete their forms. Since you speak good French it may be advisable to enquire at your tax office when this might happen. You certainly need advice as you need to know what income you should declare in France even if earned in the UK. If French resident, eventually you're going to have to prove that you have a level of income enabling you to be self sifficient in France after Brexit.

[Philip]

Thanks for that. Yes I plan to earn my living here as my job is teaching English language. However, with no investments, pensions, incoming rent, I assumed the form would be 'relativity' simple. I think it is except for those parts 6,7, 8. In 2017 I earned about 10 grand and that's it. As a result I paid no tax in UK. I'll go to the tax office tomorrow and enquire, but I was hoping to be 'armed with info' before I go. So any more information is useful.

regards

Philip

[andyh4]

I agree Phillip. Very hard to decipher and I got it wrong more than once and was invited to visit the Hotel des Impots by a very nice lady to correct the declaration.

Your UK salary goes into box 7.

Box 8 I think is for those who live in countries who will reimburse tax paid there once they have proof of tax paid in France _ so you pay the tax twice but eventually get a refund (I think it works like that between Germany and Belgium).

Box 6 is I think for things like rental income earned abroad (IIRC).

If it is no hassle go to the tax office, I have found them to be always very helpful, although it seems we are all in dread of them and what they can do. They have certainly helped me over the years and have even helped save a few tens of euros of tax by suggesting how to declare some items.

[minnie]

You will need to declare all income earned even from UK from the date you become resident in France. If you only became resident in 2018 there's nothing to declare for 2017. It's useful to know that tax in France is based on family income rather than that of an individual. Of course you may be single with no children anyway. As you say if it's below the allowance threshold there'll be nothing to pay. What you need to consider is that following Brexit you'll need to prove that you have sufficient income to live in France before receiving a carte de sejour.

[Philip]

Great. Box 7 under 'autres revenus' I imagine. But yes i'll visit the tax office tomorrow - worth a trip to get it right.

[Philip]

I worked in uk 2017 from oct to dec. But the rest of the year I was in France so I need to declare this before brexit to ensure I have some record of my existence. I'm not a home owner or rental. I stay with a friend here and do 'odd jobs'. But I want to get official - it's a bit tricky. Although I do have a french bank account which is one thing.

[minnie]

Be very careful. This no such thing in France as barter. If you're getting accommodation in exchange for odd jobs Mr Taxman will want to put a financial value on it to charge your friend tax on that value....This works even within families in France. Doing any sort of work for anyone has a financial value here!

[BritinBretagne]

Invest 12 Euros in the Connexion tax guide. It answers all your questions.

[suein56]

Is this more now reliable than it used to be ? Mostly in the past it was decidedly wrong.

[BritinBretagne]

It might not be perfect but it answers all the questions people ask on forums without them having to endure a variety of contradictory replies from well informed and less well informed posters.

I have always found it excellent and well worth the investment.

[Philip]

Thanks for the advice BritinBretagne. I might invest the 12.5 euros if the tax office can't clear it up. Naturally it's closed today. My situation is quite simple, so I don't think it'll be a huge amount of stress.

Philip

[Patf]

As above, plus first I think you should discuss this with the friend you're staying with as they might have some fiscal obligations.

[Kong]

I'm with Sue. In the past disconnexion have got some things wrong which would have cost me dear had I followed their advice. I would welcome an experienced punter's thoughts...

[BritinBretagne]

As I’ve already said I’ve found it excellent.

[EuroTrash]

"I worked in uk 2017 from oct to dec. But the rest of the year I was in France so I need to declare this before brexit to ensure I have some record of my existence. I'm not a home owner or rental. I stay with a friend here and do 'odd jobs'. But I want to get official - it's a bit tricky. Although I do have a french bank account which is one thing."

Do you have proof of address, ie a rental contract? Were you in the French healthcare/social security system during this time or did you have full private health insurance? Can you prove you had sufficient income not to become a burden on the French state? Because if you don't/weren't/didn't/can't, then just filling in a French tax form is unlikely to do you any favours.

To correctly exercise your freedom of movement as an EU citizen, then depending on status you have to meet certain conditions. It sounds as if your official status so far has been "inactif", ie economically inactive in France. That being the case you would need to show that you met the conditions for EU inactifs in France.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F12017

Any periods spent living in France but not ticking the right boxes, is almost certainly not going to count towards "legal residence" come Brexit. The préfecture checks whether you met the conditions when you apply for a carte de séjour, they want to see more paperwork that just a tax return, especially if that tax return shows insufficient income. You might end up paying a thousand € or so social charges on your UK income and nothing gained for it. Plus, what are you going to do the UK end? Will they class you as a leaver? Claiming to have your main residence both in the UK and in France simultaneously risks getting you into a sticky situation with the tax authorities both sides.

[andyh4]

Some good advice. The only point I would clarify is that while you could perhaps have problems if you claimed you main residence was both in the UK and France, it is perfectly possible to be tax resident (in the definition of being required to provide a tax return) in more than one country at a time. Indeed at one stage my wife was declaring in 3 countries for a couple of years because she spent more than 90 days per year in the UK, I was working in Germany and she spent some time there (joint declarations as in France) and she was using our house in France as a primary residence, which I visited most weekends and holidays.

From what Philip has disclosed, I see no problems in him having worked in the UK and paid tax there while his main residence is in France. However proving the residency in France and all that goes with it could indeed be an issue.

[EuroTrash]

Yes, certainly you can be liable for tax in several countries for the same tax year, but you can only be a "tax resident" of one, and that one is the place where you declare worldwide income. When your wife was liable for tax in several countries, I assume she declared worldwide income in the country where she was resident, and in the other countries she would have indicated on the tax form that she was non-resident, and simply declared the income that was taxable in that country.

If the OP was a tax resident of France, then HMRC and also his UK bank would need to know this; you can't change your tax residence from the UK to France without filling in a form to inform the UK. However if he has a home in the UK and no official home in France; if he worked in the UK and not in France; if he was resident in the UK during the previous tax year; then even though he spent more time in France than in the UK I don't see how he would meet HMRC's "automatic leaver" test. So he would need to consult HMRC before classing himself as non UK resident. Details of HMRC's Statutory Residence Test here - HMRC has sticky fingers, it's quite hard to get out of their clutches unless you make a clean break

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/

uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/

547118/160803_RDR3_August2016_v2_0final_

078500.pdf

Then, if he is non-resident in the UK, he needs HMRC's agreement to continue paying NICs, because as a non-resident he's not entitled to NHS cover without the agreement of HMRC/DWP . This means he needs to apply for a portable health document/worker's S1, as a cross-border worker living in one EU state and working in another. If issued, he would continue paying NICs and the UK would cover his healthcare in both countries. I don't know if they would agree to this if he lives abroad and only works in the UK for a few months a year.

So that would have been the correct way to do it, but it doesn't sound as if any of this has been done. He seems to be hoping that all you have to do to is pop up in France at the end of the year and submit a tax form, and then you will be classed as resident for that year and your status throughout the year somehow won't matter. But that's not how it works. The fisc will be happy to take your money, if you offer it, but that won't necessarily give you any entitlements. The tax office doesn't make decisions on residency, all it does is process the data you provide.

So I think he needs to clarify his status here before he makes himself known to the fisc, and especially now that the fisc and URSSAF share information relating to PUMA affiliation and cotisations, it might be better to wait until he's got all his ducks in a row before he pops his head up.

[andyh4]

Your reply just shows how complicated things are.

In fact it does not and cannot work as you describe because of different fiscal arrangements.

By virtue of declarations being joint in both Germany and France but individual in the UK, if you spend roughly equal times in each country it is difficult to establish a single tax residence - especially if different criteria can be used.

I was working in Germany and so that was clearly my centre of financial interest and with that came healthcare for the OH. OH was in receipt of a UK OAP and that was the sole income in the UK - but HMRC insisted that because the time spent in the UK was more than their 90 day minimum she must make declarations. She spent the majority of her time in our sole owned property in France and this was therefore deemed her centre of interest. Both Germany and France demanded worldwide income be declared but the DDT ensured no adverse impacts.

[Philip]

Thank you for your advice and comments. However, I'm doing a tax return because I was told I had to by the prefecture in Montauban when I had my carte de sejour interview - which I didn't get. I intend to remain in France and find work either as self employed or employed, so this is the process I'm doing. If i choose to go back to the UK at some point to live (highly unlikely) I'll come to that bridge when I cross it.

However, the original question was what are boxes 6,7,8 for on the 4047 tax return. I have no pensions, investment, shares etc....

Thank you

[EuroTrash]

"However, I'm doing a tax return because I was told I had to by the prefecture in Montauban when I had my carte de sejour interview - which I didn't get. "

Fair enough. Was just trying to save you paying CSG for nowt in return. Would have saved some wasted posts if you'd said this - your posts rather implied that you had decided voluntarily to fill in a tax form because you thought it would somehow help establish residency ;-)

[minnie]

Euro trash has a very valid point. You'll soon learn in France that if you fall between 2 stools you could have problems and it is not straightforward. Your first port of call should have been to fill in the form declaring to UK authorities that you consider yourself resident in France. They have to agree to this. Can't remember the form number but I'm sure that someone else will step in.

[Philip]

Minnie, I don't think that's the case, I've lived abroad on and off for nearly 20 years, and have returned to the UK to work and live. The only thing they stop you doing is getting benefits etc for three months. I'm a UK citizen so I can return any time, surely....

[Philip]

Eurotrash - You had some valid points I agree and thank you. You're right, it may be a waste of time. Although they told me that because I won't be taxed on my income (it's too low) there's no harm in doing it. If, that is, I want to remain in France. I will make a decision.

regards

[EuroTrash]

If your income is below the tax threshold you won't pay any income tax.

But are you sure you won't be liable for "social contributions" on your overseas income?

I couldn't tell you the rules on social contributions, they keeps changing, but I seem to remember that it's just been increased. It can be quite a burden for those who have to pay it. Basically it is a charge that residents pay on unearned income, and also earned income that hasn't already been subjected to French social security cotisations in the usual way. Your overseas income may fall into this category since it is income that you haven't paid French social security on. If you held an S1 from the UK to prove that you were covered by the UK social security system I think you would be exempt from these charges, but I assume you don't have an S1.

If you have a choice whether to submit your form or not, I would make sure you're not going to be liable for social charges. The tax office are quite capable of telling you you won't have to pay any tax, and then sending you a large bill for social charges - because technically, they are not a tax.

You can read about social charges here

https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/social-security/social-welfare-levy/