Calling all Francophiles......

[mint]

Do you love France enough to pay £34,000 to come and settle here?

Only an interesting thought on an idle morning (too cold and damp to feel like work of any description) and I am just thinking through the implications of immigrants having to pay that sort of money up front.

These academic types of course do not live in the real world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/7833428/Nobel-Laureate-Gary-Becker-says-immigrants-should-pay.html

[Gluestick]

Well, New Zealand has had similar strictures in place for some while: in the case of those seeking to reside (e.g. retirement) establish a new business or buy an extant one, Sweets.

Personally, I don't think the concept of "Buying" the right to reside could or would work, in practical terms of reference.

What is very much required, in the UK, is to only admit new migrants where they can clearly demonstrate developed and essential skills: and ideally prove they already have a job awaiting.

The US (Apart from asylum seekers) has imposed such restrictions for years: obtaining a Green Card is not now easy: mainly due to the increased numbers of "Wetbacks" trying to beat the US Immigration Service along the borders of Calif. Arizona et al. (Many of whom are now migrating upwards right from Tierra del Fuego!

Obtaining a Green Card for Indian and Chinese engineers with excellent academic qualifications where they wish to work in (particularly) Silicon Valley, Calif. is still reasonably easy: I met many brilliant Asian engineers when working there 25 years ago: and there are far more now.

France has in place the statutory right to demand migrants (Even EU migrants) prove they are self-supporting: it is, like the health thing over CPAMs etc, already enshrined in EU paramount law despite ostensibly "Open Borders": as those know who have tried, vainly, to set up a business or follow an occupation pursued for many years with full accreditation in the UK: Coops knows an equestrian who has now fought the French system for years.

IMHO Britain ought to demand evidence (As it can) of means of support, for the hordes of Eastern Europeans.............and evidence of craft and other skills.

 

[andyh4]

All of which of course is fine as long as we are thinking about engineers, doctors, nurses and so on.

 

But what of those occupations where the indiginous population have little or no interest in working - lettuce planting, cotton picking, street sweeping?

 

Here also is a valuable opportunity to utilise migrant labour - but who will stump up the entrance fee?

[Gardengirl]

I put this post on the end of one about La Post - just double-checked this is the right one!

I heard part of that broadcast this morning Sweet, and didn't see how it would work, especially as mentioned above for agricultural work etc. Maybe an employer would have to sponsor people and then obtain a refund when they left the country or something like that.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="andyh4"]

All of which of course is fine as long as we are thinking about engineers, doctors, nurses and so on.

But what of those occupations where the indiginous population have little or no interest in working - lettuce planting, cotton picking, street sweeping?

Here also is a valuable opportunity to utilise migrant labour - but who will stump up the entrance fee?

[/quote]

Ah: the old chestnut rears it's head once more.............

Britain: ONS Stats (most recent): Unemployed 2.47 Million:

Number on Invalidity Benefit:  2.7 million: This benefit was abused, after Thatcher cancelled unemployment benefit after a short qualifying period. Doctors in areas where coal mining, steel industry etc had been decimated, allowed patients to be furnished with certificates, using such diseases as Chronic Anxiety State: hence Sickness Benefit: now Invalidity benefit: what's in a name. This also meant that those genuinly seriously incapacitated suffered marginalisation of income.

For me, those genuinely incapacitated: ought to receive at least double: whereas a number of shirkers I know "It's me back Gov: excrutiating pain!", seem to manage as one I wot of, to clamber all over his house come Christmas, erecting a vast display of totally OTT lights, replete with cribs, santas and sleighs.

And another, in France: early retired civil servant: full pension after just 15 years: and IB claimaint, maneged to clamber up ladders and paint her two story house..........

The silly answer to the immigrant question is always "Who will do xxxxx".

Now, suggesting that immigration is the answer, means concurrently that those working and paying taxes, will continue to support those who sit on their jacksie all day long, whilst the country's infrastructure (Housing, Schools, Health etc) suffers from the massive impact of catering for such influx.

Worse, it means that businesses such as mine and taxpayers such as myself, be compelled to subsidise non-viable businesses paying just minimum wage, whilst the proprietors swan around in a new top range Mercedes! (Think Care Homes...........).

The core answer is very simples: (Apols. Meerkats): pay a living wage: and dump the idiotic raft of benefits, which create a two-tier tax-benefit system, where one set of bureaucrats extract money: and yet another hand it back, 'cos people cannot afford to live! And, naturally, all those lovely civil servants retire at 60 with final salary schemes, funded from tax revenues. Absolute insanity! This is what brought Left-Wing Sweden to its fiscal knees some years back.

If the lettuce farmer can't create a profit: then do what all of us honest entrepreneurs have had to do when our sums were wrong: close up and try summat else!

At least France and Spain realised years ago that public transport services were an essential aspect of transport infrastruture: and remunerated accordingly: as well as invested.

Whereas Britain in the early 1950s, decided the only way to solve London Transport's problem was Caribbean immigration: rather than pay a living wage.

And the same "Solution" has been trumpeted thereafter.

I trust you realise that London has the greatest percentage of immigrants now in the country: E.g. Borough of Westminster, in excess 50% of population not born in UK) and an unemployment rate almost double the average.....

Go figure........

 

[andyh4]

Not like you to trot out the Daily Grunge diatribe of Australian hyped nonsense.

 

"If the lettuce farmer can't create a profit: then do what all of us honest entrepreneurs have had to do when our sums were wrong: close up and try summat else!"

 

In the UK and France the farmer will be (or at least should be) paying the minimum wage.  So if only immigrants are prepared to do such jobs, it says something about the level of minimum wage or something about the working conditions versus expectations - what you mean I can't do the job with my feet propped on the desk?

 

 

 

 

[Gluestick]

Well, you can label it as nonsense if you like: however I write on such topics and have completed the research: thoroughly.

For me, it is a question of separating out the political rhetoric from the pragmatic stats: those emerging from central and local and regional government.

Consider: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7824291.stm

 

[Weedon]

Gluestick wrote:-

If the lettuce farmer can't create a profit: then do what all of us honest entrepreneurs have had to do when our sums were wrong: close up and try summat else!

Very often that is said by people who have never actually grafted for a crust.

Perhaps the "lettuce eaters" are not paying enough.

[Will]

I would suggest it is the lettuce sellers rather than the lettuce eaters who do not pay enough. If the right thing happened, and indigenous  lettuce pickers were paid a sensible wage rather than having to import cheap workers, all that would happen is that nice Mr Asda would get even more lettuces brought in from Romania or Kenya or wherever else cheap lettuces are available.

[just john]

At the risk of continuing to hijack the thread,

"Whether manufactured by black, white, brown or yellow hands, a lettuce remains a lettuce
- and it will be bought anywhere if the price and quality are right.
The market is a more powerful and more reliable liberating force than government can ever be."  -  Margaret Thatcher

PS
No, I wouldn't Sweet, but then I don't live here full time anyway.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Weedon"]Gluestick wrote:-

If the lettuce farmer can't create a profit: then do what all of us honest entrepreneurs have had to do when our sums were wrong: close up and try summat else!

Very often that is said by people who have never actually grafted for a crust.

[/quote]

Well, it just so happens I have, Weedon: and still do. Working 15 hours per day, seven days per week including every public holiday except Christmas Day and Boxing Day, to earn capital, many years ago: and have grafted hard since.

[quote] Perhaps the "Lettuce Eaters" are not paying enough[/quote]

Then grow some other crop which is more profitable.

 

[Will]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Working 15 hours per day, seven days per week including every public holiday except Christmas Day and Boxing Day... many years ago...

[/quote]

So it's true. You are really Maggie Thatcher. [;-)]

[Gluestick]

With a beard, Will.

[;-)]

[Weedon]

Gluey wrote:-

Well, it just so happens I have, Weedon: and still do. Working 15 hours per day, seven days per week including every public holiday except Christmas Day and Boxing Day, to earn capital, many years ago: and have grafted hard since.

That's not good Gluey, might I suggest that you organise your working days a bit better (a little less posting on here during work time is a start), but if you can't, best do something else. Not letteuce growing though, Kos sitting at a desk for 15 hours a day 7 days a week does not prepare you for any sort of hard graft.[:)]

 

 

[just john]

Wat ercress statement to make, Cos, you Little Gem, that kind of talk could get you a Rocket and a Mache din Head[:D]

 

[andyh4]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Then grow some other crop which is more profitable.

 

[/quote]

 

So what would you recommend the budding entrepreneur to grow then?

 

Coca, Marajuna or maybe Opium Poppies?

[mint]

[quote user="just john "]

Wat ercress statement to make, Cos, you Little Gem, that kind of talk could get you a Rocket and a Mache din Head[:D]

 

[/quote]

Lettuce pray and turn over a new leaf ................

No more personal name-calling, please!

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Weedon"]

Gluey wrote:-

Well, it just so happens I have, Weedon: and still do. Working 15 hours per day, seven days per week including every public holiday except Christmas Day and Boxing Day, to earn capital, many years ago: and have grafted hard since.

That's not good Gluey, might I suggest that you organise your working days a bit better (a little less posting on here during work time is a start), but if you can't, best do something else. Not letteuce growing though, Kos sitting at a desk for 15 hours a day 7 days a week does not prepare you for any sort of hard graft.[:)]

[/quote]

Did, Weedon: did, not do. I still put some hours in though now: even though I'm a couple of years past UK male retirement age.

When one starts a business in a demanding area which is capital-intensive and one has insufficient capital, then the only option is hours and graft: rather than sliding off to the pub to watch football, sick leave 'cos of a liddle sniffle, hours spent stuck in front of a TV screen watching moronic junk and the rest.

Each to his and her own.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="andyh4"]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Then grow some other crop which is more profitable.

 

[/quote]

 

So what would you recommend the budding entrepreneur to grow then?

 

Coca, Marajuna or maybe Opium Poppies?[/quote]

Hardly in Norfolk and Lincs: a wee bit cold.

Personally, I wouldn't suggest anyone went into Farming in either England or France: unless they had a pretty large tract of land and could farm intensively: however, they would have to suffer no pangs of conscience concerning use of GM crops if arable: or be pretty callous if raising beef. If they wanted to make any money.................

 

[just john]

Or you could follow the  market and grow profitable organic food for the independent retailers;  Supermarkets-lose-out-to-independent-retailers-in-growing-organic-market [8-|]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="just john "]

Or you could follow the  market and grow profitable organic food for the independent retailers;  Supermarkets-lose-out-to-independent-retailers-in-growing-organic-market [8-|]

[/quote]

Article a wee bit stale, JJ.

Interestingly, the consulting side of my practice carried out a consultancy for the Soil Association some 12 years ago.

And I have followed the progress of Organic Farmers and Smallholders here and there since: Mrs G and I try and source organic produce where we can.

Unfortunately, many smallholders and small arable farmers struggle to compete with the mass food markets driven by such as Walmart (Asda et al).

Our immediate neighbour in France (We're in an intense agricultural area: both arable and mixed dairy/meat), is an enterprising young man who raises totally organic plants as seedlings to sell on: and his lovely wife runs a nearby (Round the corner) Organic apple orchard: and in the actual village (We are within the commune, but some distance away) is a sort of wholesale/distribution centre for organic veggies.

In the UK, we struggle to find decent Organic "Farm" shops: despite being nearby loads of arable farming lands and farmers.

Stuff like this fails to help the business model: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23725592-organic-food-no-healthier-blow.do

It would appear that many organic farmers and smallholders are struggling to create viable businesses.

Now personally, I hope such as Jamie Oliver and more particularly Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's initiatives on areas like battery chickens do influence public perception and consumption patterns.

I'm not, sadly and cynically, holding my breath..........

 

[just john]

Riverford seem to be doing OK based on successful conversion of Farmers Co-op to Franchise, still privately owned turning over £25M.

 

[Gluestick]

Let's examine that more closely.

http://www.farmersguardian.com/how-organic-supply-chain-is-dealing-with-downturn/23288.article

 

As an example, a quote from Riverford's own website:

"Think about it; ten organic ewes to the hectare giving around 1.7 lambs each at a completely unpredictable price of anything from £25 (for conventional) to £80 (for an organic new season lamb) would mean a gross turnover (not profit) for a 300 ewe flock of between £12750 and £40,000. Hardly enough, once rent, feed, vets bills etc are paid to turn a profit let alone go on holiday. Admittedly few farms are stocked with lambs only. Normally they would be part of a traditional mixed farm or hill farm where sheep would be sold for fattening on more fertile farms in more temperate areas. Sheep will eat grass that cattle won’t touch. Up until the end of January they are in demand to clear the last of the previous years grass prior to the ‘spring bite’ of new succulent growth. So it is hard to say how much land would be needed but, at up to £10,000 per hectare, you wouldn’t be paying for it with the proceeds of sheep farming.  300 ewes will keep a man fairly busy. Obviously the work load varies enormously during the year meaning your sheep farmer has time for something else – like another job. ........"

Quote:

The FTSE 100’s top employees generated annual revenues in excess of £3m per person, according to analysis by financial website The Motley Fool ⁽¹⁾. By comparison, the typical FTSE 100 worker generated some 15 times less - around £210,000 in revenues annually.

Meanwhile, top-notch FTSE 100 workers made in excess of £1m in profit for their employers ⁽²⁾. This is over 50 times more than the average staff at Britain’s blue-chip quoted companies who produced only £17,710 of profit annually.

Source: http://www.fool.co.uk/press-releases/2009/09/03/britains-most-productive-employees.aspx

By comparison, Riverford's £25 M annual revenue equates to just £ 92K per Capita.

Hardly a winning formula....................