Health professionals questioning

[NormanH]

The more you know the more sensitive you can be. It also includes being

sensitive to the fact that some patients are not comfortable about

talking about any aspect of their personal life with anyone.

It is not a question of 'comfort'. It is (in France) illegal!

I repeat what I quoted  previously:

I. - Il est interdit de collecter ou de traiter des données à

caractère personnel qui font apparaître, directement ou indirectement,

les origines raciales ou ethniques, les opinions politiques,

philosophiques ou religieuses ou l'appartenance syndicale des personnes,

ou qui sont relatives à la santé ou à la vie sexuelle de celles-ci.

https://www.cnil.fr/fr/loi-78-17-du-6-janvier-1978-modifiee

This came about after the misuse of such lists under the Occupation. Such a register makes it easier to target certain groups as those who lived through it know.

[lindal1000]

It's certainly not illegal to ask it as part of an assessment. I can send you copies of the assessment forms that are currently used. Collecting information for statistical purposes is completely different..which I think was maybe what the initial BBC article was talking about in the UK, although it was not particularly clear.Do you honestly think you can plan an intervention with someone when you don't know anything about their life? Just to give you an example... someone has a stroke, needs help with wiping their bottom, lives with another person. You need to know the nature of that relationship to know whether this would be a task that the person they live with would be prepared to carry out and whether it would be acceptable to them both to have that happen. There are ways of getting that information without making it sound like the Spanish inquisition and certainly that information is not shared on a database but I don't know how you could intervene without having some idea of those things.. Information on ethnicity has been routinely collected in the NHS and stored electronically for years. I guess maybe they are just thinking of adding sexual orientation to that. When I worked at University of Brighton they routinely collected that info on their staff as part of their equality monitoring. It wasn't obligatory to supply that information.

[NormanH]

"Information on ethnicity has been routinely collected in the NHS and stored electronically for years."

This is also illegal in France for the same reasons.

See here:

http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2015/05/05/quand-robert-menard-fiche-les-enfants-des-ecoles-de-beziers_4627511_823448.html

The maire of Béziers was investigated for it

Cet interrogatoire s'inscrit dans l'enquête préliminaire ouverte par le procureur de Béziers pour « tenue illégale de fichiers en raison de l'origine ethnique ». Mardi après-midi, quatre policiers ont mené une perquisition à la mairie

What does it take to make people understand that the intrusions into privacy that have become routinely accepted in the UK are not only not accepted  here, but illegal????

[ebaynut]

Linda1000 wrote,

Try telling that to people who are born with a mixture of male and female sexual organs.

The cyclist Robert Millar returned to commentating this year as Phillipa York and very knowledgeable she was too.

I accept that there are people who are born with birth defects but we are not discussing them, we are talking about Iduns friend 'Bertie'

'Bertie' it would appear is a man, had children, so clearly he is a man, now he wants to be a woman, and be known as 'Susie' and wear woman's clothes.

'Susie' is just a fella in a frock, you cant change gender, 'Susie' is mentally ill, but if they wish to appear as a woman, well that is their choice, but please do not go along with the idea that they have changed and are now in fact a woman.

Trouble is the government is now placing other boxes to tick then male/female and is going along with these lunatics, please don't join in, they need help not pandering to.

And as for this 'Phillipa' you mention, they may know a lot about cycling, but they too are clearly mentally ill if they think they are now a woman, and so are you if you go along with it.

[woolybanana]

The bit about a refusal to answer being recorded is rather sinister.

[cajal]

[quote user="lindal1000"] When I worked at University of Brighton they routinely collected that info on their staff as part of their equality monitoring. It wasn't obligatory to supply that information.[/quote]

Ah, University of Sussex - Brighton. That hotbed of liberalism and radicalism.

'Though distinct from the education-specific theory outlined by

Hicks and other supporters of reform, this apparent expectation and high

visibility of intense and involved student activism is where this

radicalism is most evident. It seems like every hallway is adorned with

notices of protests and political performances, Coca-Cola and Nestle

products are no longer sold in campus stores as a response to student

activism against “unethical practices,” and all buildings offer

gender-neutral bathrooms due to a student campaign in 2013'.

From a US students blog whils't attending the above establishment.

[lindal1000]

From what I remember there were a number of check boxes and the final one was 'prefer not to say'.. So in that sense you are recording refusal to answer in a sense.

I was thinking about it, and I actually remember my GP in the UK, when I first registered with him 15 years ago, asked me some very direct questions abut my sexuality. Just to prove it wasn't at all for PC purposes, here is a rough indication of the conversation.. " So are you single then..do you have a boyfriend or girlfriend?" Me: "No, I live on my own and am single and have been for some time. Doctor: 'why's that then..I mean you seem quite normal and intelligent' Me 'I guess I've never found anyone I was that interested in and I quite enjoy being on my own" Doctor " Ahh I see, you're a bit fussy then, nothing wrong with that I suppose. My wife wishes she'd been more fussy..... laugh !!

[lindal1000]

Norman I do work in France now and I do know that health care professionals will routinely ask about family and relationships. At the very least how do you think they know who to contact when you kick the bucket.

[woolybanana]

The use of the word 'refuse' in any context can be threatening and very definite whereas using 'decline' is more polite and less direct, less confrontational. Therefore, if any health professional tried to say that I had 'refused', I would politely tell them that they are wrong and that I had 'declined' to give them the information because it is too intrusive.

And that I objected most strongly to this appearing in any medical record.

My French heart doctor offered me a particular medical test which I declined to take. He wrote down that I had refused it and I had to teach him the difference. He changed the wording of the report.

[mint]

Having been the subject of intensive medical scrutiny recently (including an operation), I can report that I have been asked whether I "have somone at home" on the day of discharge.

There is also a form to fill in "Désignation de la personne de confiance" which could be anybody you choose to name with no indication as to relationship of the person to you (the patient).

So no, no probing except for one very rude doctor but I soon got off his list and found another far more sympathetic and kindly.

[lindal1000]

I think it's different if people are concerned about your ability to manage at home. Last week I did some practice interviews with students, in English, and I asked them to use the interview that they had done the week before in their class and translate it. This is what they asked me. What is your name? How old are you? Are you married? Do you have any children? Where do you live? Describe a typical day? Do you work? What are your hobbies? I'm not saying every one attending hospital would get this kind of interrogation but everyone who was referred to occupational therapy would. I'm sure when I went to Bordeaux and registered at the outpatient department the receptionist asked me if I was married and ticked something on a form.

[NormanH]

[quote user="lindal1000"]Norman I do work in France now and I do know that health care professionals will routinely ask about family and relationships. At the very least how do you think they know who to contact when you kick the bucket.[/quote]

No they don't. As mint  says they ask you to give

 "Désignation de la personne de confiance" which could be anybody you

choose to name with no indication as to relationship of the person to

you (the patient).

and they may ask after an anesthetic in hopital de jour  if 'vous avez quelqu'un à la maison', since you aren't supposed to be alone that first night.

What they won't ask is about the relationship of that person to you.

Why are you so unwilling  accept what is written in black and white in French law?

- Il est interdit de collecter ou de traiter des données à

caractère personnel qui font apparaître, directement ou indirectement,

les origines raciales ou ethniques, les opinions politiques,

philosophiques ou religieuses ou l'appartenance syndicale des personnes,

ou qui sont relatives à la santé ou à la vie sexuelle de celles-ci.

https://www.cnil.fr/fr/loi-78-17-du-6-janvier-1978-modifiee

If you intend to take French nationality one day you will have to try to accept the legal and cultural differences between the two counties and not persist in

'the way the UK does it is normal and best' attitude that you seem to have blindly adopted.

[Chancer]

That has absolutely been my experience Norman.

 

The bad example was the eye hospital after the first detached retina, I had given the détails of une personne de confiance, I was discharged and told to "not do anything, make no efforts" disregarding that I had arrived by ambulance and was 40km from home I questioned them on what exactly "make no efforts" meant and they were very clear, I was to do nothing, let your femme s'occuper de vous, when i said that I was single, lived on my own and would have to walk to the shops and carry shopping they said absolutely not, let your entourage s'occuper de vous, as with many things they just could not comprehend that I lived alone, was independant and had no entourage, they just shrugged their shoulders, as a result I suffered 3 subsequent récidives of detached retinas and aside from all the extra hospital stays and operations I am now effectively blind in the eye. Had they cared about my post op recovery at home and enquired about my circumstances or even listened to my pleas they would have used silicone and not air or gas on the first operation and would not even have needed to keep me in.

 

The good experience was with my coloscopy, I declined to give the name of a personne de confiance because the only one that could have acted if the worst were to happen, the person that speaks English and could contact my next of kin is the person worse equipped to cope with a stressfull situation and I would not want to visit that on her, perhaps as a result of that the surgeon asked about my home, was their someone that could surveille me and he decided that after the op in the morning I should remain in the hospital room for the day and night before being discharged, he also arranged a bon de transport to and from the hospital which was a great relief to me. My sexuality or my Relationship with any personne de confiance was never asked, even if it were not illegal it would be irrelevant and intrusive, I leave that to the banks [:D] 

[lindal1000]

I’m not refusing to accept anything Norman. I think we are possibly talking at cross purposes. I understand that the routine collection of data relating to sexuality or ethnicity, especially when that is then used to compile statistics is not legal. However, in specific instances it is not forbidden to ask such information. In many cases it would be poor care not ask it and indeed in your case Chancer I believe it was negligent of the hospital not to ensure that you had care in place to enable you to follow the medical advice on your discharge. Our 90-year-old neighbour was not allowed home until care was sorted out for her and they would have had to found out something about her environment and home situation to do that (she has no children). Just because no one asked you doesn’t mean that they can’t.

In case anyone is interested then this is what is included in an OT assessment, whether it is legal or not. It also includes what in included in the evaluations from other healthcare professions and social workers (who communicate with each other).

https://www.has-sante.fr/portail/upload/docs/application/pdf/ergoth_rap.pdf

As I’m sure none of you will want to read the whole lot, here’s a quote from the section on daily activies.

Habitudes antérieures de vie : C’est une description concise des habitudes de vie de la personne avant son hospitalisation ou son problème, dans les différents domaines de sa vie. Les habitudes de vie correspondent à des activités significatives pour le patient, qui sont sources de motivation (4,50,53). Ce recueil de données d’ordre général se fait par entretiens et questionnaires. La famille est également source d’informations sur les plans relationnel et technique.

Domaines explorés : – domaine des soins personnels : toilette, habillage, repas, hygiène, sommeil… ; – déplacements : intérieurs et extérieurs, modes de déplacement ; – communication : modes utilisés – étude des rôles familiaux : activités domestiques, scolaires, de gestion, activités personnelles et interpersonnelles : couple, enfants, famille ; – étude des rôles sociaux : activités scolaires et professionnelles (tâches, poste de travail, responsabilités, rythme), activités de loisir et de culture, activités sociales (bénévolat) ; – environnement social : habitat, services, ressources

[lindal1000]

And with regard to French Nationality, I also have to prove that I have integrated professionally. This requires me to understand the remits of my of my profession and how it is practised in France.