French want UK economic miracle

[Tom]

There's some good quotes in this Grauniad article today about the French economy. It helps to explain the flexibility versus social welfare debate for the referendum..

One prof says about the unemployment system that "The longer you pay people for doing nothing, the longer they will do just that"

You can read other articles by economists saying that Uk growth is only based on consumer spending,which is down to house prices, and that because nobody makes anything there's going to be trouble.   

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1491574,00.html

[letrangere]

One prof says about the unemployment system that "The longer you pay people for doing nothing, the longer they will do just that"

Goodness, even the Guarniad recognises this now?  Life in Britain certainly has changed since I left. 

You can read other articles by economists saying that Uk growth is only based on consumer spending,which is down to house prices, and that because nobody makes anything there's going to be trouble.

I'm not an economist but I've long held this view.  Isn't it all to do with consumer confidence and people in the UK "feeling" well off because of the value of their homes?  When they start to "feel" less comfortably off, they'll stop spending, as we're already starting to see.

M

 

[Deimos]

Quote: “I'm not an economist but I've long held this view. Isn't it all to do with consumer confidence and people in the UK "feeling" well off because of the value of their homes? When they start to "feel" less comfortably off, they'll stop spending, as we're already starting to see.”

I would tend to agree (and I’m also no economist). It seems quite a dramatic impact as well. I also have a suspicion that the UK economy is not actually as strong as Labour would have had us believe (i.e. what they were talking so much about during the last election). British industry now in technical recession, UK gov. borrowing (percentage) again outside the “sustainable level” (as agreed my the Maastrict Growth and Stability pact), street revenues down but 4% – 7% (an “open summary” of the range reported in the news), etc. Maybe it is the house price inflation (and the knock on effect of consumer spending) that has been masking these difficulties ?

There does seem a massive resistance by French employers to take on new staff even when they cannot adequately meet their requirements with existing staffing levels. I am told this is due to the employment laws and it must be contributing to the level of unemployment and slow economic growth.

[letrangere]

There does seem a massive resistance by French employers to take on new staff even when they cannot adequately meet their requirements with existing staffing levels. I am told this is due to the employment laws and it must be contributing to the level of unemployment and slow economic growth.

You're right.  And it's a vicious circle for as it is so expensive for companies to take on staff in France, unemployment is only going to increase.  It's not something that gets much airtime on the Forum but I read recently that France has had its worst decade of economic growth since WWII.  And unemployment is a major issue that seems to touch people irrespective of their qualifications or social class.  Yet still Brits arrive ever hopeful of finding work.  M

[Deby]

And unemployment is a major issue that seems to touch people irrespective of their qualifications or social class.  Yet still Brits arrive ever hopeful of finding work. 

When we came to France we both had jobs to go to.  I didnt realise until several months later how difficult it was for the French to get a job or even a decent paid one to boot.  I did experience a little resentment from a few French and was always careful about what I said and tried to appreciate that I was fortunate.

Now in the "gite" business ourselves I find it alarming at how many Brits simply pack up and go.  They believe the UK has gone down the pan and France is surely better.

This little chestnut topic is very important and France really needs to introduce some hard economic rules, the Germans' are doing it at the moment, but their culture is more suited to change.  The French will muddle along, but for how long?  Introduce more taxes for the workers? Is this the Govt's solution. Make it more restrictive to employ people.  I would employ people if I didnt have to pay so much in social charges that is for sure.  Unemployment around here is 17% for goodness sake.  Conversesly, I have met a few who simply do not want to work, they just want to take the benefits and then work on the black when it suits them - work has to fit around them.  Its shocking!

I hear all the time from Brits who dont live here, oh surely it is better in France to have more job security - the job for life approach, the strikes by the truckers for better pay for whoever is asking for it at the time!  Is this really a good thing? In my opinion NO!  

I could go on and on about this, but do the French care enough!  Maybe in the cities but am not so sure out here in rural France.

Deby (17 Charente Maritime).

[Jo53]

The Grauniad article was very interesting. To me it rings very true. There was another article in the same Organ this week by Martin Kettle, saying that Europe has to face up to the new economic reality, which is that China and India are fast becoming economic powerhouses. He says the cushy old 'social' model to which the French are still so wedded was only possible when the European and US economies were the only show in town. It is not sustainable in the face of increasing global competition. The UK economy is not perfect but it is in a better position to address this than France. The French are scared stiff of this competition and instead of adapting their reaction is to try ever harder to protect themselves, which makes them even less competitive.

I do think that unless France faces up to reality it will simply be sidelined as the dynamic new economies steamroller over it. I am not advocating a US-style lack of social protection, but the French are now so nannied that they believe the world owes them a living.

Jo

 

[letrangere]

Deby/Jo, what an interesting dialogue, fully agree with all you both say.  I cannot fathom how so many Brits believe everything is rosy in state of France when it so clearly isn't.  Ignorance is bliss, I guess, but how can you ignore unemployment figures such as the 17% in Deby's part of the country?  Especially when you consider that the figure in the same area for the under 25s is possibly an awful lot more.

And another good piece in the Guardian.  I often read the better quality US papers (excellent writing in the NY and LA Times) and they've been warning of this for sometime with the implication being that certain economies of the Third World are soon likely to overtake those of the Old. 

Personally, I think France is already being sidelined.  In fact look back a few years, weren't the rules bended a little to allow her to join the Eurozone as technically even then she didn't qualify on the grounds of her economy?  I can't see how the situation can be salvaged without imposing conditions that would surely result in another revolution.

M

[SaligoBay]

The more sensible French people do bemoan the ridiculously restrictive employment laws in France.

Had a French bloke in the back of the cab just last night talking about French people going to the UK, setting up their business there, and coming back and running it from home, because it's all just so much easier to start up there.  Don't ask me the details, because I don't understand these things, but it does fit in with what we hear about young French people going abroad for better opportunities. 

Why do Brits think France will be better?  Partly because the grass is always greener, bien sûr.  But it's also easy to get other issues confused, such as....... "I love French people, they're so non-materialistic, happy with so little".   I think the truth is that French people know the limitations of the system, and they're resigned to it.   They may be happy, but it doesn't mean they wouldn't take more money if they could get it!

And has nobody wondered why you don't meet "Loadsamoney" and his pals in France?  Because you just can't DO "loadsamoney" in France!  I know it must be difficult to believe, for Brits brought up on a "if you work hard you'll reap the rewards" culture.

And lastly, sad but true, yes there are many French people who just don't want to work.  Benefits can be generous if you know how to go about getting everything you're entitled to, and in spite of what many British seem to think, travail noir is widespread and a normal part of life here.

There, everyone depressed now?     I'm not, cos I HAVE A JOB!!!!     

[Sprogster]

"Travail Noir" widespread?  Surely not?

Seriously though,in reality from my experience it is unavoidable.

Without exception everytime I have employed reputable local French artisans to work on my house, I have been quoted two prices with a lower non TVA price for cash.

I tell them I want to pay VAT, as I need the invoices so I can offset the expenditure against any gain on the eventual sale of the house. Their reaction is that I am clearly mad.

Not only is the black economy alive and well in France but it is growing. 

[letrangere]

Having once been part of the black economy (English lessons on the side) and known so many French doing the same, I've often wondered why such a strong moral tone is often taken on the Forum towards those even hinting at doing a little bit of travail noir.  Especially as most are so innocent they wouldn't even realise it was technically illegal, not that that's any excuse but, all the same.  When in Rome?  M

[Miki]

M,

Of course it goes on, many (well most of us, OK then, a few of us but of course pas moi !!) have little "magouilles", especially in the south where I am afraid it cannot get any worse, if it has got any worse since we left then ..... well unless no one works, OFF the black !!

What I learned many years ago is to stay pretty stum about such things. Let a French person (or a Brit perhaps !) know too much about you and your business and one day unintentionally or otherwise, whoops all is revealed and the "bracelets" are on.

I don't say too much about "travail au noir" but do get umpy when that is how some folks get all their salary in such a way, the shrewd peeps work their normal job and at the weekend do a bit for themselves, that's the way it is, not just here but all over the world....

[Teamedup]

I'm not, but even if I was considering travail au noir, because I do know what goes on. I would not be so blxxdy stupid as to ask a public message board how to do it or if they would employ me or I could employ them.

 

And surely people know that undeclared work would be louche. Are we really to believe that so many such innocent souls are all moving here.