Tieman Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 While we are now using an avocat via our (French) house insurance, we were just wondering if anyone had words of wisdom, solice or help about the problems we are having with our new neighbours? Not living full time in France or being fully fluent, we really feel at a big disadvantage and it's now diffcult to look forward to being in our house when we know that they will be around! I have re done the recent introductary e mail we sent to the avocat which gives a brief idea of what has been going on. We understand that our house was the farmhouse for a small holding/farm. The farm yard/courtyard was eventually split up into 4 plots between the family and various homes built, 3 of which are now outside the family. it is very likly that many many changes, building works etc. etc. were agreed between the family with no written records being kept and now those directly involved are dead! Our neighbours the B's bought their house in April 03 and after doing much work are now living full time there. When we bought our house in June 02, we specifically asked our English based lawyer to check with the Notaire about the ownership of the fence boundary between our house and plot 761/419. Our ownership of the fence was confirmed to be as shown on the Plan Cadastral. We have subsequently checked again with the Notaire and he confirmed this. In Dec 03 when I came down to the house, I found that our neighbours the B’s had built a large shed, the eave's of which were overhanging the fence. I talked to them about it and showed them the plan Cadastral which they said was wrong. After several further discussions about the fence ownership and still stating that the plan Cadastral was wrong, the B's asked us for permission to replace the fence with a wall. We gave our permission but only if the wall was replaced in the same position. The B's then started to say that they would build the wall approx. 30 cm. into our property, not in the same position at the edge of our house, as they had decided it was a mitoyen wall (is there something like a "party wall agreement" to look after our interests as it would in England?) and the fence position should reflect that because their property area was smaller than it should be! We approached our insurer at Easter '05 to resolve the problem using our legal cover. Unfortunately we were not aware that because of staffing changes, no action was taken by them, so the wall was built some 6 months later in September '05, about 45 cm. X 5m into our property. This 5 m. strip widens a choke point in their outside space from 1.85m. to 2.2m., so a big gain for them! The B's have been contesting for more than 2 years that the plan cadastral is wrong in both fence position and ownership, though they accept that the fence had been in position for over 35 years! Because the fence has been in position for more than 35 years, our English lawyer says that under condition 2262 of the Code Civil, that they can't now contest the position of the fence? At no stage have the B's shown us any official documents or any form of proof or evidence to back up their claims (though after building the wall, they say they have shown it to Le Marie), so against the instructions of Le Marie and without our permission, they have built the wall, with us loosing about 45 cm x 5 m. Together with the fence problems, we now understand that they are also looking to try and change the outer wall of our house (so they can add an upper floor to their present single story house), which we gather was probably built about 50 years ago (when the upper floor was built onto our house). Our exterior upper wall was possibly built even before their "house" was anything more than farm outbuildings or storage sheds in what was then the farmyard/courtyard to our house! As the B's seem to do what they want with our house, we would need our concerns about possible damage to our house, loss of privacy by being overlooked, new windows being able to look directly into our bedroom, loss of natural light, over development of a very small site, no parking for any extra cars, loss of value to our house by becoming More sharing options... Teamedup Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Have you not got any bornes on your land at the boundaries?If not then personally I would employ a geometre and get them to place them. Your neighbours cannot legally touch these once in place. And if after that was done the new wall is then on your land I reckon I would be taking a sledge hammer to it and chucking the bricks back onto their land. Never ever accept anything verbally. If you have anything to send, keep a copy and sent your correspondance by recommande avec accuse de reception and keep both receipts with the copy of your correspondance. When you receive anything always keep not only the correspondance but the envelope it came in. I am afraid that there are stories like this all over France. Some Mairies can be worse than useless, fortunately not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Lori Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I agree with what teamedup said, except that I probably wouldn't have the courage to tear down the wall. I suppose I would rather like to have the wall between me and the neighbors, but as you say, not 45 cm's onto my land.I don't know about your dept., but here, building a wall around your property requires a legal permit. Did they get one? If so, that permit must state exactly where the fence will be positioned and built. Go to the Mairie and ask to see this permit. If said permit does not exisit, you have a legal case against them - I believe you have one anyway assuming your data is correct and they built the wall 45 cms onto your land. Sounds like a nightmare - and yes, like oh so many. I am not totally sure what I would do, but I know one thing - I would try my best to come up with SOME sort of compromise. If not, these "little bad dreams" just keep growing and growing on any and every little tiny opportunity until they are full blown nightmares that can lead to people doing some really stupid things. Maybe it is not possible, but have you tried to invite them over for coffee or drinks in the effort to try to determine what might help the two households to work these issues out in a manner both can accept? There must be some way both sides could compromise?Just a thought.Legal work can cost a fortune, sometimes a bit of compromise along with a regular glass of wine or shared cup of coffee can go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Clair Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 HiAny involvement from a géomètre regarding disputed boundaries is legally binding on both parties and the costs will be shared. You can force them to accept and pay for their share of a dispute settlement.This course of action will probably resolve your "litige" but is likely to lead to a lasting feud... but you already have that, don't you...?Call on a géomètre's office ASAP and get some advice from the horse's mouth.In the mean time, stay cool and pleasant with your neighbours, do not get angry or cross: your unexpected "nice" behaviour will throw them off their feet (they expect angry words to be met with angry words).Good luckClairUpdate: I have just found the relevant info and will roughly translate.Boundaries are usually agreed in common. A "géomètre" will look at all the claims, the land, the plans, the proofs, will measure and trace the boundaries on plans.If an agreement is reached, the boundaries are marked on the ground, the findings will be published and become binding on both parties.His fees are not regulated and vary according to what work is required. They are usually shared 50/50 (not always). On top of that, there will be notaire's fees for the paperwork and the publishing of the new boundaries in the relevant registers."Bornes" cannot be removed and you can "porter plainte" against "X" with the "Procureur de la République" for destruction of property.If there is a disagreement, you can ask for a "bornage judiciaire" where the boundaries are decided by a judge who can disavantage one party if he feels they have been "de mauvaise foi" (less than honest).Any owner can ask the local "tribunal d'instance" to intervene, without the help a solicitor. If this relates more to land ownership rather than boundary dispute, it's another tribunal ("grande instance") and another ball game. The tribunal you approach first will decide and ask you to approach the other tribunal if this is the case.In the case of a "bornage judiciaire", each party will be asked to prove their claim. The judge will oversee, appoint a "géomètre" and make his findings. If the parties agree, everybody signs and the new boundaries replace whatever was in the original deeds..If one of the parties does not agree, they must lodge an appeal within 30 days. After 30 days, the original judgement is binding.Hope this helps.Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Washy Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Oh I do feel for you....We have had similar problems years ago now, being surrounded by a farmer and his wandering fences, as well as his wandering cows!!We had a difference of opinion with our neighbour over a boundary fence. Rather than start with lawyers we decided to check our boundaries ourselves. We wrote to our neighbour (recorded delivery) and asked him to join us to check the boundaries as this would be cheaper than employing a geometre. You can get a copy of your plan cadastral from the mairie, this, with an accurate ruler in millimetres and some string. We measured our boundaries using the corner wall of our very old property (14th century water mill). Your plan cadastral will be to scale and you can check scale against a metre length, use the string if necessary, or a long tape measure if you are lucky enough to have one. We chose a lovely sunny afternoon and had wine, bread and cheese ready for a picnic. As it happens we were so engrossed in measuring we forgot to consume this. Our neighbour declined the invitation but did agree to the boundary we set after much measuring.At the same time as all this we put in a Declaration de Travaux notifying the Mairie that we would be fencing all of our boundaries. Your neighbour should have done this to erect the wall and the shed/building - as Lori said check that he had the permission to do this in the first place.We had a great afternoon doing this and found out so many things about our property. We found a mine - dangerous - which we have since fenced off, we found the old road, the mairie said did not exist (so they did not have to repair it - Ha ha - they do now!!), we foudn some of the original bornes used for the boundaries, and we found our neighbour had stolen many metres of our land for his cows. So that evening we went to see him, he was very good humoured, shrugged his shoulders, and said he needed the space when he was trying to turn the enormous tractor and machine he had used to clear the land (the land he stole from us in the first place).........Now as you know a metre of land along a great distance can quickly add up to a great deal of land. So we told him we would need to get a geometre in to decide the boundaries again and he would have to pay half etc. He offered to give us another strip of land equivalent in area. We refused this as this in the future could cause problems proving ownership etc. In the end he relented and agreed to move back his electric fences. My husband agreed to replace the more heavy duty barbed wire and posts when we replaced our fences. He was quite happy to do this, but he still does not keep his cows under control and we are forever having to round them up, and they ate my apples this year, so there is still friction but in the end we were able to put back our boundaries in their original places. So I am for sorting things out amicably.Now regarding the proposed new buildings, you must visit the mairie, express your concerns, and make sure your neighbour is submitting proper Permis de Construires for all this work. There are very strict rules about overlooking windows etc. If, like in our very rural mairie, the paperwork is immediately sent off to the local Equipement /DDE, then go there and request to see the plans/permis, they should show them to you. In fact you may find it easier to deal with this department that with the mairie. Mairie's in small communities may have all sorts of liaisons with local families - they may all be in one family........or at war with another family.I would always try the amical approach before lawyer's letters start flying about - I wish you the very best of luck.Washy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Please sign in to comment You will be able to leave a comment after signing in Sign In Now Share More sharing options... Followers 0 Go to topic listing All Activity Home Forums Legal and Finance French Legal Issues Les voisin de l'enfer × Existing user? Sign In Complete France Browse Back Browse Forums Online Users Leaderboard Activity Back All Activity Search × Create New...
Teamedup Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Have you not got any bornes on your land at the boundaries?If not then personally I would employ a geometre and get them to place them. Your neighbours cannot legally touch these once in place. And if after that was done the new wall is then on your land I reckon I would be taking a sledge hammer to it and chucking the bricks back onto their land. Never ever accept anything verbally. If you have anything to send, keep a copy and sent your correspondance by recommande avec accuse de reception and keep both receipts with the copy of your correspondance. When you receive anything always keep not only the correspondance but the envelope it came in. I am afraid that there are stories like this all over France. Some Mairies can be worse than useless, fortunately not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I agree with what teamedup said, except that I probably wouldn't have the courage to tear down the wall. I suppose I would rather like to have the wall between me and the neighbors, but as you say, not 45 cm's onto my land.I don't know about your dept., but here, building a wall around your property requires a legal permit. Did they get one? If so, that permit must state exactly where the fence will be positioned and built. Go to the Mairie and ask to see this permit. If said permit does not exisit, you have a legal case against them - I believe you have one anyway assuming your data is correct and they built the wall 45 cms onto your land. Sounds like a nightmare - and yes, like oh so many. I am not totally sure what I would do, but I know one thing - I would try my best to come up with SOME sort of compromise. If not, these "little bad dreams" just keep growing and growing on any and every little tiny opportunity until they are full blown nightmares that can lead to people doing some really stupid things. Maybe it is not possible, but have you tried to invite them over for coffee or drinks in the effort to try to determine what might help the two households to work these issues out in a manner both can accept? There must be some way both sides could compromise?Just a thought.Legal work can cost a fortune, sometimes a bit of compromise along with a regular glass of wine or shared cup of coffee can go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 HiAny involvement from a géomètre regarding disputed boundaries is legally binding on both parties and the costs will be shared. You can force them to accept and pay for their share of a dispute settlement.This course of action will probably resolve your "litige" but is likely to lead to a lasting feud... but you already have that, don't you...?Call on a géomètre's office ASAP and get some advice from the horse's mouth.In the mean time, stay cool and pleasant with your neighbours, do not get angry or cross: your unexpected "nice" behaviour will throw them off their feet (they expect angry words to be met with angry words).Good luckClairUpdate: I have just found the relevant info and will roughly translate.Boundaries are usually agreed in common. A "géomètre" will look at all the claims, the land, the plans, the proofs, will measure and trace the boundaries on plans.If an agreement is reached, the boundaries are marked on the ground, the findings will be published and become binding on both parties.His fees are not regulated and vary according to what work is required. They are usually shared 50/50 (not always). On top of that, there will be notaire's fees for the paperwork and the publishing of the new boundaries in the relevant registers."Bornes" cannot be removed and you can "porter plainte" against "X" with the "Procureur de la République" for destruction of property.If there is a disagreement, you can ask for a "bornage judiciaire" where the boundaries are decided by a judge who can disavantage one party if he feels they have been "de mauvaise foi" (less than honest).Any owner can ask the local "tribunal d'instance" to intervene, without the help a solicitor. If this relates more to land ownership rather than boundary dispute, it's another tribunal ("grande instance") and another ball game. The tribunal you approach first will decide and ask you to approach the other tribunal if this is the case.In the case of a "bornage judiciaire", each party will be asked to prove their claim. The judge will oversee, appoint a "géomètre" and make his findings. If the parties agree, everybody signs and the new boundaries replace whatever was in the original deeds..If one of the parties does not agree, they must lodge an appeal within 30 days. After 30 days, the original judgement is binding.Hope this helps.Clair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washy Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Oh I do feel for you....We have had similar problems years ago now, being surrounded by a farmer and his wandering fences, as well as his wandering cows!!We had a difference of opinion with our neighbour over a boundary fence. Rather than start with lawyers we decided to check our boundaries ourselves. We wrote to our neighbour (recorded delivery) and asked him to join us to check the boundaries as this would be cheaper than employing a geometre. You can get a copy of your plan cadastral from the mairie, this, with an accurate ruler in millimetres and some string. We measured our boundaries using the corner wall of our very old property (14th century water mill). Your plan cadastral will be to scale and you can check scale against a metre length, use the string if necessary, or a long tape measure if you are lucky enough to have one. We chose a lovely sunny afternoon and had wine, bread and cheese ready for a picnic. As it happens we were so engrossed in measuring we forgot to consume this. Our neighbour declined the invitation but did agree to the boundary we set after much measuring.At the same time as all this we put in a Declaration de Travaux notifying the Mairie that we would be fencing all of our boundaries. Your neighbour should have done this to erect the wall and the shed/building - as Lori said check that he had the permission to do this in the first place.We had a great afternoon doing this and found out so many things about our property. We found a mine - dangerous - which we have since fenced off, we found the old road, the mairie said did not exist (so they did not have to repair it - Ha ha - they do now!!), we foudn some of the original bornes used for the boundaries, and we found our neighbour had stolen many metres of our land for his cows. So that evening we went to see him, he was very good humoured, shrugged his shoulders, and said he needed the space when he was trying to turn the enormous tractor and machine he had used to clear the land (the land he stole from us in the first place).........Now as you know a metre of land along a great distance can quickly add up to a great deal of land. So we told him we would need to get a geometre in to decide the boundaries again and he would have to pay half etc. He offered to give us another strip of land equivalent in area. We refused this as this in the future could cause problems proving ownership etc. In the end he relented and agreed to move back his electric fences. My husband agreed to replace the more heavy duty barbed wire and posts when we replaced our fences. He was quite happy to do this, but he still does not keep his cows under control and we are forever having to round them up, and they ate my apples this year, so there is still friction but in the end we were able to put back our boundaries in their original places. So I am for sorting things out amicably.Now regarding the proposed new buildings, you must visit the mairie, express your concerns, and make sure your neighbour is submitting proper Permis de Construires for all this work. There are very strict rules about overlooking windows etc. If, like in our very rural mairie, the paperwork is immediately sent off to the local Equipement /DDE, then go there and request to see the plans/permis, they should show them to you. In fact you may find it easier to deal with this department that with the mairie. Mairie's in small communities may have all sorts of liaisons with local families - they may all be in one family........or at war with another family.I would always try the amical approach before lawyer's letters start flying about - I wish you the very best of luck.Washy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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