Bugsy Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 C,mon, thats an anti-muslem/immigrant website for goodness sake.......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote user="Bugbear"]C,mon, thats an anti-muslem/immigrant website for goodness sake..........................[/quote]For god's sake, I googled the question, got a whole page of links giving the same statistics, and posted the first link.Grow up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 GROW UP............................You post some questionable facts, don't like having them questioned and end up throwing your toys out of the pram.I think its you that need to GROW UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote user="Bugbear"]GROW UP............................You post some questionable facts, don't like having them questioned and end up throwing your toys out of the pram.I think its you that need to GROW UP [/quote]It works out about 100 a day "About 36 000 cars are burned each year in France. This year, betweenJanuary and the end of October, 30 000 cars had been set alight,National Police Chief Michel Gaudin said in an interview publishedTuesday in the daily Le Monde."[:D][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 According to the BBC news website, the French National Police Chief is quoted as stating an average 100 cars each day are set on fire, so raindog is correct.It has become something of a national sport amongst French diseffected youth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 I really do wish people would actually read what was said. At no time did I say that Raindog was wrong. I said I didn't believe the quoted figures.Despite the BBC news website and the anti-muslim website quoting figures it does not prove that those figures are correct.What on earth does an average of 100 cars a day mean and what is it based on.Does the figure include cars that catch alight by accident or are set alight by disgruntled owners seeking to claim on their insurance.The figures on RD's second post (website) certainly come from the insurance business.Wasn't it Disraeli who said "Lies, damm lies and statistics" (he didn't say damm, but it reads better on an open forum)Enjoy......................................[8-|] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote user="Bugbear"]What on earth does an average of 100 cars a day mean and what is it based on. [/quote]And if it is 36-40000 cars per year, is this a lot? Numbers like this are meaningless when presented in the absence of contextual information. France may be top of the European car-torching league, she may be middling or she could be languishing at the bottom of the table just below Plucky Little Belgium. We cannot tell.Does anyone else even keep a tally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 For those of you in need of an instant headache, here are some useful stats from the European Insurance body the CEA.http://www.cea.assur.org/cea/download/publ/article256.pdfIt appears that the TOTAL for 2005 was just 9,000. The French state refused liability, thus the underwriters have to be accepting it. Look at page 69 of the country by country analysis of the market. (I must be seriously sad bothering to research this!)Now, if one accepts the stats earlier stated of 36,000 - 40,000 (using a median value of 36K), then that's a rise of 420% in just three years...................Q.E.D motor insurance rates in France would have increased, probably times factor three.To me, this smacks of the typical "Slag off France" sensationalistic journalism one has come to expect by Left Wing organisations like the BBC et al.Putting the raw stats another way, that's one burnt out vehicle for each and every 1,500 persons in France. If they are all in places like Paris, Lyons, Tolouse etc, then there would probably be no room for mobile cars, vans cammions and buses!I've not seen one in six years and Calais and Boulogne have their problems!Neither of the two scrapyards I have driven past are piled up with burnt out vehicles, either.I wonder where they actually are?Dans la Manche ?[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 [quote user="Just Katie"][quote user="Gluestick"] BTW, Cathy: I'm rarely aggressive on this forum, [/quote]RUBBISH!!!!..................YOU ARE THE BIGGEST THUG ON THE FORUM!!! [:@]Ooooops sorry, mistaken identity.[:$][6][:D][/quote]Ha! Coming from you, that's rich!YOU'RE THE BIGGEST WIND-UP MERCHANT ON THE FORUM![:P]Good one Katie[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Why thank you kind sir. [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 This statistic is not anti French propaganda as it was given by by the French National Chief of Police!If car torching has increased 420% over the last three years, there is a degree of logic in this is the time frame over when the street riots started and escalated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote user="Sprogster"]This statistic is not anti French propaganda as it was given by by the French National Chief of Police![/quote]Absolutely right. The guy who gave the figures on tv last night was connected with the police. If you read the odd newspaper, listen to the news and keep your ears open the information is there for everyone. If you prefer to live in a snuggly cocoon that's your choice. Jesus, I only posted yesterday to recommend a really interesting French tv programme - sorry to burst everyone's cosy bubble."To me, this smacks of the typical "Slag off France"sensationalistic journalism one has come to expect by Left Wingorganisations like the BBC et al." [8-)] the bbc? This was on French tv last night, or do French police officials rely on the bbc for information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote user="raindog"][quote user="Sprogster"]This statistic is not anti French propaganda as it was given by by the French National Chief of Police![/quote]Absolutely right. The guy who gave the figures on tv last night was connected with the police. If you read the odd newspaper, listen to the news and keep your ears open the information is there for everyone. If you prefer to live in a snuggly cocoon that's your choice. Jesus, I only posted yesterday to recommend a really interesting French tv programme - sorry to burst everyone's cosy bubble."To me, this smacks of the typical "Slag off France"sensationalistic journalism one has come to expect by Left Wingorganisations like the BBC et al." [8-)] the bbc? This was on French tv last night, or do French police officials rely on the bbc for information?[/quote]Personally I'm not questioning the figures. I just want to know if 9000 or 36000 or 40000 or how ever many have been set fire to is a lot in context or not very many at all. Thanks for the document link gluestick...it was...complicated. I wonder what their Chritsmas party is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 It sounds alot to me.If it wasn't, they probably wouldn't bother mentioning it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 One would guess that their Christmas party might be fairly boring, Riff Raff!After all, they are insurance industry members........................................................Much French TV is Liberal/Left. Raindog, remembering France is fundamentally a socialist state..............Most mainstream media people these tend to be Left Wing and therefore instantly tend to sympathise with the oppressed and the underdog.One strange experience a few years ago was eating lunch with a producer in Channel 4's HQ in London: the place was weird, to say the least!And thereby, I believe emerges the dichotomy.Despite being Left Wing in nature, a majority of French voters are fed up with this sort of criminal act, civic disfunction and etc and have adopted a Right Wing attitude. From what those I know are saying to me. And I did say "Like the BBC" not ought else.Those numbers still defy logical reference; let's hope more clarity will emerge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 How much clarity do you need? These are the official police figures. They give them out each year, and each year the figure rises slightly. Wish i'd never mentioned this....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Is there an official source, Raindog?If it is fact, rather than perhaps expedient massaging of known stats in order for the police authority to "prove" a point (for e.g. more funding; more non-accountable powers etc: it's not unknown in politics!), then as I said earlier, next years renewal invitatioon of French private car insurance will experience exponential premium rises!Or exclude cars damaged by civil unrest totally from the cover: if it already doesn't! Perhaps worth taking a look?Since the civil authorities have apparently refused any and all liability for recompense, this may well prove very expensive for car owners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I bet if someone can find the number of cars burnt out each year in the UK it would be an equally shocking number but how many of those would have been during riots? A handfull or none I would guess.There are many cars that self ignite on the roads every year which make up a significant proportion of insurance claims, in my memory it has been Ford Anglias, where the windsreen wipers cut into the wirng loom, anything with a Ford essex V4 or V6 engine where the fuel leaked from an interference fit fuel spigot straight onto the distributor and Ford Galaxies with the 2 litre petrol engine, where the coil wiring chafes on an undeburred bracket. This is just one manufacturer!I cant justify the claim but I believe that for every legitimate self ignition there are probably 10 where the car has been stolen (mostly with the owners help) and conveniently torched to destroy any evidence in order to claim on the insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 I wonder what the result would be if the insurance companies looked at this like they look at flooding ......if you live in an area that floods....not covered .....live in an area that has regular unrest resulting in burning cars ...no pay out....How many dads would then be out by their cars to stop them being torched and telling the kids to go home ? I suspect loads of them as it appears its mostly youths that do it .? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Can't think there'd be many blokes willing to mess with a bunch of youths with iron bars and petrol cans. But I think they move in and out pretty fast when they do it. There was a guy a couple years ago saw some lads on a pushbike that he identified as his wife's that had been stolen some time previously. He confonted them and was beaten to death.(I suppose I'll have to provide valid links and court case details now [:)]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 I think I would have to have my car out of harms way as soon as possible !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreizeVents Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 2006 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article607860.ece 2005 http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4902005 http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=90662007 after elections http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/societe/252217.FR.php2007 after elections http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/speciales/politique/20070507.OBS5884/730_voitures_brulees592_interpellations.htmlOf course I have no more idea what data to believe than any of you. All the articles I found quite easily might not convince anyone (google burning cars France or voitures brulees). It could all be a police plot to get more money. You would think that the insurance companies might know exactly, but I have failed to find out where they publish their data on the web. Certainly it is pretty obvious where most of the cars are burned, in the car parks of the banlieu. They are poor people's cars. My guess is that many of them are not insured, given the estimates of the million or more drivers who are uninsured in France. therefore those cars of poor peopple are not insured, not reported to insurance companies and affect nothing about insurance rates. Presumably poor people. So the utterly accurate numbers are never going to be known (if you don't trust the police figures), nor are some of you going to be convinced that cars get burned regularly. Certainly during the riots of recent years, like 2005, there were counts given on French TV every night. I thought some social scientists would take that rising or falling number as a good "indicator" of intensity of riots in various places. In Montpellier, for example, there were way fewer burned and way fewer riots than in other big cities (Montpellier is eighth biggest in France).In any case I did think it was well known that the French (well OK, young poor French lads) are particularly keen on burning cars, more than anywhere else. The biggest night is New Year's Eve, has been for years, and no doubt will be this year too. Although I suppose some of the hot riot nights might have been higher. I just can't figure out why you don't all know this is happening, or have never seen a burnt out car. I really did think this was common knowledge. Maybe you don't go into the right neighbourhoods? I can believe that, as these events happen in the tower block areas which is not where most of us regularly drive to do our shopping, and certainly not a place to take short cuts. I only see them when I take a particular short cut in Montpellier, or when I get lost trying to remember that shortcut. Otherwise I would think there were no burned cars either. Although I do believe the data given by the police on this one. And there were even two burned cars recently in our small town.Besides, without much trouble, I can see exactly why young poor pissed of lads would burn a car. Or throw a rock through a window. Easy to imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote user="TreizeVents"] I just can't figure out why you don't all know this is happening, or have never seen a burnt out car. I really did think this was common knowledge. [/quote]So did I........good googling TreizeVents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 [quote user="TreizeVents"]Besides, without much trouble, I can see exactly why young poor pissed of lads would burn a car. Or throw a rock through a window. Easy to imagine.[/quote]I can understand why a young immigrant with no future would want to burn a car, but only a rich man's BMW or Mercedes, not their poor neighbour's second hand Renault.I remember during the riots in '05 they showed a guy standing crying in front of his burned out builder's lorry. He'd saved for years to buy it so he could get a small business off the ground. It was heartbreaking.I also have trouble understanding why they would want to burn down a local library or children's nursery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 If it's anything like the UK, then a lot of cars stolen for joyriding are subsequently torched. My car was stolen from a railway car park in the UK. When we got the call from the police saying they had located it (stripped and abandoned in a not too salubrious a part of town) it was followed by the comment that 'we should go pick it up asap or it would be torched'. According to our local police, torching cars is seen as only marginally less fun than joyriding....Btw - the car was only an old vauxhall nova. Cars are targeted for joyriding because they are easy to steal - as well as because of their potential speed. So a second hand renault could be a target... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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