Why are French exercise books......

[YCCMB]

I loooooove squared paper, and stock up on it whenever I'm in France. Although I don't write stuff very often, but I much prefer it - and my handwriting benefits - when I do.

Even my elder offspring prefers French paper. He took home a supply of exercise books to use as his sketchbooks when he visited in the summer. His reasons are more logical than mine, as when he makes a sketch it can help with drawing to scale and perspective.

OTOH, I spent some time a couple of summers ago helping a friend's granddaughters to learn a little English. They came all equipped with little notebooks and pens, and it took longer for them to verify (with each other: twins and their older sister) that their letters were correctly formed, than to do anything else. In fact, they were so hung up on writing "correctly" that two things happened:

- by the time they'd written a word to their satisfaction, they had forgotten what the word was or how to say it

- they couldn't read most of what I wrote down for them, whether in English or French, because my ecriture is clearly non-conforme.

[Judith]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I

- they couldn't read most of what I wrote down for them, whether in English or French, because my ecriture is clearly non-conforme.

[/quote]

Which rather proves to me that spending too much time on making sure that handwriting conforms to a certain pattern is rather wasted.  If by such measures they cannot read writing other than the one they have been taught, it rather limits their life progression I would have thought .... unfortunately in life they are bound to meet many people whose writing they cannot therefore read !!!!

[woolybanana]

But remember that the purpose of the French educational system is to put people into boxes and keep them there. So, if everyone has the same writing, no problem.

[Debra]

Yes they still learn to write like that in primary school and the teachers are very strict about it.  However, nobody seems to bother once they go to college.  My son deliberately wrote in all sorts of weird ways when he first started in college and nobody commented.  After a while he gave up and went back to the script he'd learned back in the UK in preparation for coming to France because it was actually easier and faster for him.

I think the paper with the small squares is for maths but they don't use it any more in our college despite asking for it a couple of years ago.   It hasn't been on the last couple of year's lists of what is required and I've got boxes of the stuff that never got used.

[Judith]

[quote user="Debra"]Yes they still learn to write like that in primary school and the teachers are very strict about it.  However, nobody seems to bother once they go to college.  My son deliberately wrote in all sorts of weird ways when he first started in college and nobody commented.  After a while he gave up and went back to the script he'd learned back in the UK in preparation for coming to France because it was actually easier and faster for him.

[/quote]

See my reply above - teaching writing which is legible is one thing .... but it is far more important to make sure that education fills the students for life outside education -and a job -  and thus (by inference these days) out side France!!

[Debra]

[quote user="Judith"][quote user="Debra"]Yes they still learn to write like that in primary school and the teachers are very strict about it.  However, nobody seems to bother once they go to college.  My son deliberately wrote in all sorts of weird ways when he first started in college and nobody commented.  After a while he gave up and went back to the script he'd learned back in the UK in preparation for coming to France because it was actually easier and faster for him.

[/quote]

See my reply above - teaching writing which is legible is one thing .... but it is far more important to make sure that education fills the students for life outside education -and a job -  and thus (by inference these days) out side France!!

[/quote]I saw your previous reply, which was referring to kids not being able to read other styles of handwriting and I don't see how that - or in fact this reply - is at all relevant to what I said, never mind to the original subject of what the paper is for?  My son can read other styles of handwriting and can change his own writing to various styles but in the end, finds the cursif script easier to write quickly with, which is surely the point?  I'd prefer he was concentrating on the content rather than the way he was forming his letters, which he is, after the primary years spent concentrating on achieving a legible handwriting style.  We're not at the point yet where children don't need to use handwriting in school and there is no point in writing a wonderful essay on a subject if the teacher can't read it!

I think the French school system is quite well geared towards preparing children for work - in fact,  if anything, I'm a bit worried that they are perhaps pushed towards preparing for work more quickly than they should be in some cases.  My 13 year old has just had a talk with his principal teacher and is to have an appointment with a careers advisor about what he wants to do as a career.  I'd rather he just carried on as he is and did a general bac for a broad education than got talked into some sort of job training or specialism at this age. 

Where do you see the students getting a job outside France?  I don't see any future for them in the UK at the moment, where my cousins' kids have left Uni armed with various degrees only to work in jobs which they (seem to me to be) overqualified for.  My sons are seriously thinking of going to Canada, in either the Canadian Forces or the Mounties.  To do that they need the equivalent of a high school diploma and a general Bac should suffice.  For a lot of careers in Canada it can be useful to be fluent in both French and English but I don't see hordes of French kids heading over there (or being bothered to learn English) so it can't be that bad in France!

[idun]

An essay Debra?

My children never ever wrote what I would call an essay. Most certainly never in primary school and not that I can remember in college either, and if memory serves,those doing philo, are never supposed to have their own ideas, but only 'agree' with those of the greats.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Debra"]

Where do you see the students getting a job outside France?  I don't see any future for them in the UK at the moment, where my cousins' kids have left Uni armed with various degrees only to work in jobs which they (seem to me to be) overqualified for.  My sons are seriously thinking of going to Canada, in either the Canadian Forces or the Mounties.  To do that they need the equivalent of a high school diploma and a general Bac should suffice.  For a lot of careers in Canada it can be useful to be fluent in both French and English but I don't see hordes of French kids heading over there (or being bothered to learn English) so it can't be that bad in France!

[/quote]

In my limited experience, there seems to be a view that there is, indeed, a "future" in the UK - certainly if the numbers of French students I'm seeing in my ESOL classes are anything to go by. The Spaniards look like they agree, judging by those numbers. Not all of them are in superduper jobs, but then not all of them have great qualifications, either.

And again, I think so many things are governed by personal experience. I've got one son who graduated this year and had a job waiting that he'd been offered before he even began his final year, another who graduated three years ago and is now funding his Masters by being self-employed and is having to turn away work on a regular basis.(The younger one did a science/business based degree, the older one did Fine Art, so it doesn't appear to be a question of subject) For both of them, the number of their friends who are in full-time employment far outweighs the numbers not in work, and of those in full time work, they all seem to have good jobs.

[Debra]

[quote user="idun"]

An essay Debra?

My children never ever wrote what I would call an essay. Most certainly never in primary school and not that I can remember in college either, and if memory serves,those doing philo, are never supposed to have their own ideas, but only 'agree' with those of the greats.

[/quote]Not in primary school (that's where they spend all that time learning to write legibly!) but in college.  Even if they don't write an essay though and in whatever amount of writing they do, only repeat other people's ideas - they still won't get the marks they deserve if the teacher can't read their writing!

[Debra]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]And again, I think so many things are governed by personal experience[/quote]I agree - and if I had stayed living in your area (which I lived in because there were so many jobs available in the '80s when there were none in my home area) then my sons might have the same opportunities near to home, but I didn't.  It might not be possible for them to live in that sort of area now  because rents and house prices are even more ridiculous there now than they used to be. (Do your sons still live at home or house share or....how do the youngsters manage to leave home nowadays?).  I suppose I could ask my brother to put them up for a while if they decide that's where they want to be but not everyone can do that either and the point is I don't think your area (or his) is representative of all of Britain.

My eldest said to me yesterday that he really doesn't know for sure yet what he fancies doing but he feels sure he won't be staying where we are now.  He sees all of his friends whose families have lived here for generations and who don't see themselves living anywhere else and really doesn't feel like he can do that.  I told him I have friends on Facebook from my schooldays who have done exactly the same and they are perfectly happy but I always felt the same as him, so maybe we're just natural gypsies!  Or maybe I've just turned him into one by moving him around so much.  I feel happy that he feels able to go wherever he can to do whatever he wants to do.  Not all people are adaptable like that.  Maybe we'll all go to Canada.  Maybe we'll all (or even just the kids will) end up back in North Yorkshire (though I doubt it!) or maybe we'll end up selling our UK house to buy a flat near London so my boys can all go back there if they want to, to find work.  I'm happy not to feel trapped anywhere really, as I hear so often of people feeling that way nowadays.

[Debra]

Stopped there to take a phone call from Mum who is horrified to find mouse droppings behind some boxes in the bedroom and has now moved everything up higher (she wasn't impressed when I explained how mice can climb the walls).  I told her she should think herself lucky she doesn't come down in the morning to find slug trails on her kitchen work tops, with no idea of where they came from or disappeared to!  So two good reasons to leave France!

Anyway, is the general consensus then that the kids get their education here and then go elsewhere, the UK in particular, for work?  I ask because I've often considered switching back to our UK house when we've finished working on the one we're in at the moment but all these reports of Uni fees just make me think it would cost us the French house to put 3 boys through University!

[Judith]

Debra,

I'm sorry I touched a sore spot - this was not the intention.

I have always regarded what  you learn at school should equip you for life afterwards - and the meaning was (appropriate not just in France, but anywhere it  happens) that when you spend as much time as was implied in previous posts learning to write - but cannot read other people's handwriting when not trained in the same script - it is in the end a pointless exercise - a previous poster ? Betty? described this problem,

Yes they still learn to write like that in primary school and the teachers are very strict about it.  However, nobody seems to bother once they go to college.  My son deliberately wrote in all sorts of weird ways when he first started in college and nobody commented.  After a while he gave up and went back to the script he'd learned back in the UK in preparation for coming to France because it was actually easier and faster for him.

So what IS the point of teaching handwriting in such a distinct style if it can be abandoned later sans problem?

My son can read other styles of handwriting and can change his own writing to various styles but in the end, finds the cursif script easier to write quickly with, which is surely the point?  I'd prefer he was concentrating on the content rather than the way he was forming his letters, which he is, after the primary years spent concentrating on achieving a legible handwriting style.  We're not at the point yet where children don't need to use handwriting in school and there is no point in writing a wonderful essay on a subject if the teacher can't read it!

But he learnt his handwriting in the UK, which surely makes the point I also made ... and - I never said they didn't need good handwriting - what I said was that they should be able to read other types of handwriting other than the one they were taught, and if they could not do that, then spending a lot of time of making sure the handwriting conformed to the French norm, was rather pointless, and makes life afterwards more difficult.

I think the French school system is quite well geared towards preparing children for work - in fact,  if anything, I'm a bit worried that they are perhaps pushed towards preparing for work more quickly than they should be in some cases.  My 13 year old has just had a talk with his principal teacher and is to have an appointment with a careers advisor about what he wants to do as a career.  I'd rather he just carried on as he is and did a general bac for a broad education than got talked into some sort of job training or specialism at this age. 

I have no knowledge of the French system, other than what I have been told here, or by others, but whilst I agree that 13 is probably too young the system of education in France seems to be geared to one qualification, one job .... which I have always regarded as somewhat short-sighted given the economic malaise in most countries requiring a different approach to career planning - during my working lifetime I have seen the change from a job for life - to the second and even third... fourth ... etc career.  If the French education system does not allow for this change in emphasis it is not doing the pupils any favours at all.

Where do you see the students getting a job outside France?  I don't see any future for them in the UK at the moment, where my cousins' kids have left Uni armed with various degrees only to work in jobs which they (seem to me to be) overqualified for.  My sons are seriously thinking of going to Canada, in either the Canadian Forces or the Mounties.  To do that they need the equivalent of a high school diploma and a general Bac should suffice.  For a lot of careers in Canada it can be useful to be fluent in both French and English but I don't see hordes of French kids heading over there (or being bothered to learn English) so it can't be that bad in France!

As far as I can see a lot of French end up in England and particularly London - needed often for their language skills rather than other skills - where they form a sizeable community. 

France is waking up to the need that youngsters need English if they are going to work in the international sphere - so your final paragraph may not continue to be the problem you feel it is at the moment ... and those who do want to move up the ladder have long learned that knowledge of other languages is a very good way upwards.

After 6mths to a year, 2 at most, in work (any type) most of anyone's general education has been replaced by work experience, and young adults are then well placed to get a better job elsewhere.  Both my nephews and niece started on jobs for which they were educationally overqualified, or on low paid / temporary work,  Within 1-2 years, all were in good, permanent jobs, relevant to their skills and educational attainment.  My niece qualified well, but unable to go into her chosen career because she wears glasses (which she did not know was a bar initially) has found a flourishing career using her communication skills, which were never taught her at school, that's for sure.

I speak as one who had to cope with school leavers in a work environment from time to time, (it is often better when they've "forgotten" much of what they learned in school) and in job interviews (both as the candidate and as the chooser) I soon realised that personality has as much to with success as education.

Sorry this is also an essay - but I'm signing off this topic now.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Debra"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]And again, I think so many things are governed by personal experience[/quote]I agree - and if I had stayed living in your area (which I lived in because there were so many jobs available in the '80s when there were none in my home area) then my sons might have the same opportunities near to home, but I didn't.  It might not be possible for them to live in that sort of area now  because rents and house prices are even more ridiculous there now than they used to be. (Do your sons still live at home or house share or....how do the youngsters manage to leave home nowadays?).  I suppose I could ask my brother to put them up for a while if they decide that's where they want to be but not everyone can do that either and the point is I don't think your area (or his) is representative of all of Britain.

[/quote]

My eldest son lives in a flat in SE London. A lucky break and a logical financial decision before the crash meant that we realised helping him to buy a place  whilst he was a student would be a wiser financial move than paying his rent in London until he was able to pay it himself. He studies four days a week and can still derive enough income from freelance work to cover his monthly mortgage repayments and bills, although he does get a (very) small bursary.

My other son has recently moved to Bedford, close to where he works, and is renting because he doesn't know how long he will be staying there. He isn't sharing because he's done that and decided he'd prefer to pay a bit more and have a place to himself. Neither of them have  worked around where we actually live other than holiday and part-time jobs when they were at school. Neither of them have lived with us for over four years.

In this instance,it seems,  my "area" encompasses a great deal more than where I live. Both sons move about a great deal for work, both in the UK and further afield.

[Debra]

[quote user="Judith"]So what IS the point of teaching handwriting in such a distinct style if it can be abandoned later sans problem?

[/quote]

I think the way they do it means that it becomes automatic.  My son didn't abandon it forever - he just rebelled for a little while because he could.  He can write quite quickly and remain legible, using the French school script.

[quote user="Judith"]But he learnt his handwriting in the UK, which surely makes the point I also made ... and - I never said they didn't need good handwriting - what I said was that they should be able to read other types of handwriting other than the one they were taught, and if they could not do that, then spending a lot of time of making sure the handwriting conformed to the French norm, was rather pointless, and makes life afterwards more difficult.[/quote]

He learned it in the UK because I taught him to write that way, knowing we would be moving to France and that they expected children to write in cursif script.  My children can read other styles of handwriting and so their lives aren't more difficult.  The 'training' in handwriting means that they can write a lot and not get tired and their writing remains neat.  I think that's a useful skill.

At first I thought there was a bit too much emphasis on handwriting in France but then I had to put my children in primary school in England for a year and had a different experience.  There, all the children had different styles which they had been left to develop naturally and most, in years 4, 5 and 6, couldn't do script at all.  They attended handwriting classes, which were apparently part of the National Curriculum by year 5, to teach them to write in script.  This is quite hard to do at this age, when children have already been writing for a few years, as you're trying to change ingrained habits.  My children had the best handwriting in the school and I opted them out of the handwriting lessons (after some argument with the head teacher) because I didn't want them to be 'retrained' in the National Curriculum way, as the head teacher put it.  I felt really sorry for those children having to try to change the way they wrote at such a late stage rather than being able to get on with the business of learning all the other stuff they went to school to learn.

[quote user="Judith"]the system of education in France seems to be geared to one qualification, one job .... which I have always regarded as somewhat short-sighted given the economic malaise in most countries requiring a different approach to career planning - during my working lifetime I have seen the change from a job for life - to the second and even third... fourth ... etc career.  If the French education system does not allow for this change in emphasis it is not doing the pupils any favours at all.[/quote]I'm not sure that's true but I haven't looked deeply into it as yet, only so far as to tell my son he can opt to do the 'bac general' to begin with and leave a 'direction' decision until later.[quote user="Judith"]As far as I can see a lot of French end up in England and particularly London - needed often for their language skills rather than other skills - where they form a sizeable community. [/quote]

So my lot could move to London and get a job with no other skills than their French language, without having to go the expense of English lessons?  I doubt it but I'll keep the thought in mind!  It's nice to hear that your nieces and nephews and also YCCMB's children did well and got jobs that were relevant to their qualifications as all I hear from home is about how the young ones can't get jobs in the careers they wanted to be in.  Perhaps it's their bad career choices.  For instance, one of my second cousins (is that the correct relationship for a cousin's daughter?) is qualified as a primary school teacher but works in M & S behind a till - maybe she chose too popular a career path?

[Debra]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]In this instance,it seems,  my "area" encompasses a great deal more than where I live. Both sons move about a great deal for work, both in the UK and further afield.[/quote]

Maybe it's not only the weather than changes once you pass the Watford Gap!  My cousins' children haven't been so lucky North of it and so far, have taken jobs in careers that they weren't really wanting to, rather than travel further afield.  It's nice to hear that it's not all doom and gloom back in the UK though, as now we've been over here some years, we only seem to hear doom and gloom!  Maybe as someone said to me before, it's because people coming over here feel the need to justify their decision.