Grazing agreements

[davidj]

We are currently renovating a property in France which has approx 3000m2 of field attached.

Last year we paid a neighbour to cut the grass with his tractor. This year we didn't bother but when we arrived at the beginning of July he had cut the field and subsequently baled the hay for his goats. I offered to pay him but he refused payment because he had the hay. When we returned to England we received an email from the neighbour via our friends asking if we would allow him to graze 3 sheep on the field. Initially we thought this to be a good idea as it would keep the grass under control. However after further thought we decided to delay our decision until we return in the autumn as we are not sure of the implications of allowing this. The fencing would require extensive repairs to contain the animals. Also we were concerned about how long the sheep would remain; was it short or long term; would this lead to possession rights? etc. Should we charge rent? Is this a complicated area or do we just say NO!?

Any advice would be welcome

[Benjamin]

Welcome to the forum davidj.

The obvious answer to this question is to do nothing for the moment but speak to a French Notaire when you return in the Autumn.

If you enter something like Grazing Rights in the search box you turn up quite a lot of information but nothing concrete except to say it's a minefield.

See a Notaire, but it's significant your neighbour didn't ask you face to face when you were there. Maybe he thought you wouldn't think too much about it and just email back in the affirmative.

Benjamin

[Llwyncelyn]

Old approach but if in doubt pull out.  And pull out in writing nothing more and just for belt and other supporting mechanisms by recorded delivery with a signature required.

[kathyg]

Hi there,

We have a similar situation and our Notaire told us that we would have no problems longterm provided that we had nothing in writing and accepted no money from the farmer. We're in Brittany, it may be different in your area so I'd check with your Notaire, ours allows us as many 'consultations' for advice as we want at no charge.[:)]

Kathy

[TarnGranny]

Davidj, be very careful because establishing grazing rights does not depend on written agreements or on him paying you, he only has to be able to use the land regularly to register his interest. Two of our neighbours are having dreadful problems with people because of this exact problem. One even has a farmer growing crops on their land now.

The only way to get round the problem is to pay your neighbour for what he does, even if a nominal sum. If he wants to graze his sheep on the land pay him for keeping the grass short! Also you could pay him for maintaining the fences as well, that way you both get something out of it. BUT, do put something in writing to that effect and make sure that he signs it, with a clause in the "contract" to say that it is not a permanent arrangement and that he is doing it for you and not for him if you follow what I mean. It would be best to get a Notaire or similar to draw up the agreement.

The best answer of all is to say no, in writing, perhaps by Notaire's letter to make it all official. This may be a bit extreme but it is the best way to avoid all problems. You may of course find that you then alienate your neighbour, but you won't lose your land! 

[WJT]

We have a farmer that cuts our grass for hay and we were told by the Notaire as long as there was no payment from either party there would be no problem and  it would not be necessary to have any agreement. However, if payment was made or accepted and if animals are allowed to graze or even fertilizer used it could be a problem because this could be considered as working the land.  Our farmer asked to do both and we had to make it very clear that no animals were allowed nor was he allowed to use any fertilizer. It was very difficult but we are very happy that we stated this from the beginning.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Benjamin"]

.

 you turn up quite a lot of information but nothing concrete except to say it's a minefield.

[/quote]

I'm not saying any of the posters are right or wrong with their advice but can you now see why I said what I said?

Benjamin

[WJT]

Yes, Benjamin it does appear to be quite murky. It seems that depending on the Notaire you see what advice you may get. I would imagine that they wouldn't have different laws of rights to property and land throughout France. So does seem odd that we are all getting differing opinions from the Notaires (the so-called experts).[blink]

P.S The same thing with differing advise from Notaires regarding Inheritance laws.[:-))]

[TarnGranny]

I agree, it's all very murky indeed, which is why the best thing is to say no or pay the neighbour for the work.

My references to my neighbours' problems were based on the comments made when they attended Tribunals where it was made clear that a written agreement or payments to you are not necessary for grazing rights to be established. The Notaires that I deal with all agree that the whole thing is a minefield and my recommendations to say no or pay the neighbour are based on their comments.

Davidj, personally, I would pay a nominal amount each year for "maintenance" of the field and fencing, and have a watertight agreement for this, but if you have any doubts say no now. Also, if you go ahead with an agreement make sure that the agreement says that you will pay for all necessary maintenance materials, grass seed, fertilizer, fencing materials etc yourself, as well as paying him for his time!

[Gail Smith]

How strange it is when the shoe is on the other foot?

We are in the process of renting some rough land near to where we live.  It is an unofficial agreement with nothing in writing.  The farmer will plough the land for us and we have to seed it ourselves.  After that we can fence it, grow crops, make hay or whatever we want.  We are paying him the going rate per hectare for the rental plus all the MSA charges that he has to pay for it.

He is our neighbour and we trust him with this as he is one of the most straight people I have ever met.  He is helping us out (for a fee) because he knows how desperately we have been looking to rent more land for our horses and cannot find any.

I wouldnt dream of assuming any right of ownership over the land after x number of years nor would I turf him off if he should want it back.  I cannot imagine what the law would say to me should I go to them and tell them that I was now the legal farmer of the land because my horses now graze it or that I had put fertiliser on it.  I am pretty sure though that they wouldnt hand over the right to it.

I realise the law is there to protect peoples land and property but it makes me wonder about our paranoia about being above reproach and beyond the call of duty.  What must our neighbours think of us if we cannot be neighbourly? 

I know I am naive and that people do get problems but it's sad that we can deny our neighbour something which he might find of benefit when in effect by not allowing him to use it we are throwing it down the pan. 

Gail xx

[chris pp]

But, Gail, your friend is a farmer, you are not, this would make it harder for you to claim rights than if it were the other way round, a farmers rights take precedent every time.

Now, I not going to knock this person, but "We are paying him the going rate per hectare for the rental plus all the MSA charges that he has to pay for it." and under the new CAP rules they will still get their subsidy payments for the land "droit des primes" even though they are not farming it.

It may well be that they are doing you a favour, but they won't be out of pocket.

Sorry Gail, but I've lived in France too long to not cover every angle, and I would never let anyone use my land without a strict contract.

Chris

 

[TarnGranny]

Gail, are you saying that people can't obtain grazing rights when there is nothing in writing, and is your advice to davidj to come to an unofficial agreement with the neighbour who wants the use of his land, despite what has been said previously on this thread?

I'm asking because there are no doubt many people reading this forum with tales to tell about land problems and who would say (me included) that one shouldn't trust anyone as far as land rights are concerned. One should never be naive about this, our British ideas of fair play and respecting neighbours' rights can be different to the French way of thinking, and if you have found someone to trust then I hope you are right. You say you can trust him, but in this case isn't it a fact that he has to trust you, because at the moment I would say, from my own experiences, that you seem to be in an ideal situation to establish rights over his land, although if you are renting from a Farmer he will no doubt have much more protection as a Farmer than most people.

I agree with Chris about the fact that the farmer has everything going for him at the moment and you are the one who will be doing all the work for him whilst he is sitting pretty - I hope your unofficial agreement gives you a fair crack of the whip timewise and that he doesn't get all his work done for him and then throw you off the land!!!

Conversely, you say you are pretty sure that the law wouldn't allow you to have rights to the land, and I would be interested to know where you found that out from as that knowledge would be a great help in my daily job here, and a help to readers of the Forum, especially davidj.

[WJT]

I find all this very interesting and unfortunately I must agree about the fact that we should not assume that a farmer will not try and take advantage when the law is in his favour and will allow him to basically take you land.  In fact I believe the farmer that cuts our field is a tenant farmer (for many many hectares) and has been for generations therefore it sounds to me that the original owner of the land has no rights at all.

However, our Notaire emphatically told us that we should not make payment or accept a payment from the farmer under any circumstances. I forgot the term used but if a farmer just cuts a field for the hay this is not considered a legal standing. Unless this advise would change for grazing it does sound as if we are all being told something different!

[TarnGranny]

WJT, the very fact of paying someone for a job implies that they are working for you and not doing something for their own benefit with your tacit agreement, so they therefore have no rights over your property. I am not sure why your Notaire would say that you should not pay someone to to work on your land because this cannot possibly give them any rights, anymore than paying someone to work on your house does over your house, or the man we employ to cut down our dangerous trees getting rights over our wood. 

This is why a Farmer cutting hay from your land doesn't have any rights because you are actually paying him "in kind" to do it (it doesn't have to be money). Now, if he gave you a share of the hay each time, you start to get into a different ball game altogether as he could be considered to be paying you for letting him cut the hay, and of course if he actually starts to look after the fields each year in order to get the best crop then he is starting to get his feet under the table in establishing rights.

The only safe way round the problem is to have a watertight agreement where you pay the Farmer (in kind or money) and you get receipts for the payments.

[WJT]

TarnGranny, that does make sense. I guess because he takes the hay it could be considered payment of some sort. Did forget to mention that before we purchased the property the farmer had been doing this for years for the previous owner that is now deceased and the Notaire had him sign a statement giving away any rights to the property. Of course all of this was prior to us being on the scene but do have a copy of it for safe keeping!

From what I understand this is standard practice before purchasing in any case to prove that the property has no sitting tenants.  Have discussed this with the Notaire on a few occasions just hope I don't have to go back to him again regarding this matter.[:'(]

[TarnGranny]

WJT, you have perhaps put your finger on an important point of interest to this thread - do you know if the farmer had established rights over the fields before you bought the property, and possibly what rights they were - for instance, before he signed away his rights with the Notaire was he able to use the fields for ever because of his regular usage of them (Including his heirs after his death) or until he willingly gave up any rights?

Also, importantly, did the statement he signed say that he would never try to claim any new rights when the property became yours? I ask because you say he still cuts your fields and so on, and I hope he is not establishing new rights during your ownership, as you don't say if you have any agreement with him at present.

[Mlonghurst]

We are registered farmers and have had quite a few dealings with the MSA regarding the legalities of renting of land.

If you allow a farmer (note the word farmer) to utilise your land (no matter whether formaly or informaly) you are effectively giving him rights to farm the land (be this grazing animals, planting crops, growing and cutting hay etc).. If you allow him to graze his sheep or whatever animals on the land or to use for any type of farming activity then you are granting him use of the land.  There does not have to be any type of formal written agreement (although the MSA can draw one up for you at a cost of 32 Euros), the legaly binding agreement is entered into by the action of you granting him access for grazing, growing hay etc. 

When we purchased our farm the land was being grazed by a neighbours cattle and had been so for the last 24 years.  Even though no written agreement was in place (only verbal) and no payment was ever recieved by the previous owners, the Notaire still had to get a written agreement from the farmer (and all of his family as well) that they revoked all rights over the land and copies of all these signed statements were handed over with the final contract.

It is worth remembering that not all Notairs are totaly up to speed on the complexities of renting land and if in doubt it is worth your while checking on the legalities with the MSA, they are the people who really understand the rules. (Notairs also make mistakes).

Having said all this, if you enter into an informal agreement with a farmer over the use of your land and then at some future date things turn bad (sometims people do fall out) or they die and the family take over the ownership and running of the farm, then you could find yourself in trouble should they claim rights over the land.  It would be you that has to try and provide evidence that they had no such right and that you had never granted such rights.  Pretty hard to do if the farmer can say his sheep have been grazing the land with your permission.  It is also worth remebering that if a farmer decides to sell up and move one their farm will be worth more with your land thrown into the sale even if iti s leased.

Rgds,  Mike L

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TarnGranny]

Mike L, you're an early riser!

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying on this thread.

There are so many misapprehensions printed on Forums that it makes it very difficult for people to discover the truth, and your posting is very precise and easy to understand. The mention of the MSA is very good, and a good reference for anyone contemplating renting out land to Farmers.

Do you perhaps know if the rules are similar for non-farmers renting people's property, and if there is a document to use similar to the MSA's one?

Also, I mentioned previously that it is better to pay someone (nominally) to "look after" one's land so that one is more protected - Does the MSA agreement document allow for both paying and non-paying agreements, as this sounds like the perfect document for anyone who is thinking of allowing a Farmer to use their land?

Finally, does the MSA document specify length of Tenure for the Farmer and allow the property owner to end the agreement after a certain time?

[WJT]

I would also be interested to see the answers to TarnGranny's questions. For the time being, I think we may just keep the current arrangement with no formal agreement in place. It does all sound a bit risky but in the end it really does suit us and does us a big favour by the farmer cutting the fields surrounding our house.

[Mlonghurst]

Hi there,

 

In response to the question regarding private agreements (i.e. formal and informal agreements not involving farmers), I have no idea but would assume that providing the agreement does not involve using the land in any business activity then it should be ok. 

 

I have a copy of a written agreement (in French – an agreement written in English would not be worth the paper it is written on in France – all documentation must be in French) in front of me and the following subjects are covered:

 

1. Names and addresses of all parties involved in the agreement
2. Details of the land being rented (this also contains the parcel numbers and exactly how much land is in each parcel and what type of land it is (pastures, woods etc)
3. Duration of the agreement (start and end dates)
4. General Conditions
5. Conditions for termination
6. Payments: This section details the payments to be made and when (for Farmers the payments are calculated via a formula issued by the Prefecture of the Allier (or your Department) and varies according to the type of land being rented. The calculation also takes into account any outbuildings available, water supplies etc

 If anyone would like a copy of the contract we use (approved by the MSA) please send me a PM and I will scan it in and send you a copy.  I would have thought that even this document could serve as a basis for creating a private agreement.  Within the agreement you could simply put under the general conditions that each party has the right to give 1, 2 or 3 months notice.  If both parties sign it the it should serve as evidence if things ever went wrong (and if you read some of the French based forums, they often do and with dire consequences).

 

One thing also worth mentioning is that if you rent land to a farmer and one day you suddenly decide you wish to build on it or apply for busilding permission, the renting farmer can easily block your plans as in effect under French law he decideds what can and cannot be done with the land until the end of the agreement (he may even decided to dump his muck heap there for the next 2 years).

 

I agree that it is better to pay someone to do something with your land as this is (sounds obvious) a payment for services provided (e.g paying for hay to be cut and baled) and does give the person you are paying an entitlement (otherwise every builder in France would have a claim on your house when he finishes work and has been paid!!!).

 

I will get one of our friends to contact the MSA and make an informal enquiry as to whether the renting of land issues also applies to private individuals (i.e not farming or business related) and post the result up.

 

Kind Regards,  Mike L

[WJT]

Gosh Mike, that is a very generous and kind offer indeed. I have just sent you a pm.

[TarnGranny]

That's great Mike, thanks!

[Courrieras]

Mike - Have you ever come across the situation whereby an owner has tried to get their land back through the courts?

We were going to purchase 2.36 ha of land (1.30 ha of which was and still is being used for grazing cattle by a local farmer) adjacent to our property some 3 years ago.  We were also in a situation whereby the farmer had first option on purchasing the house, due to the fact that he was farming the land which was being offered for sale with the house (so we were told).  Due to owners of the property not wishing to sell to the local farmer (some historic feud between the two families), we were advised to drop our offer for the land and just purchase the farmhouse; which is what we did.

Ever since we purchased the house, the previous owners have been trying to get their land back. We understand that the farmer had an agreement, but that he is still not prepared to give the land back.  It has now been going through the courts for some 2 years.  We do have our doubts as to whether we will ever be able to purchase the land, so have taken the view that if we eventually get the land it will be a bonus!

Regards  Teresa