Trial emigration

[PaulT]

Auracia wrote:

I must admit that when I read Paul T I wasn't entirely sure whether he approved or not:

PaulT wrote:

Sound very precarious and a wonderful example for their children. They way to influence Anglo France relations. Wonder what the children will say at school. As for the UK school saying they might not accept the children who spent 6 months at school in France back seem very narrow minded. The children will take back stories of another culture - perhaps their French teacher might not be too happy, especially if they are British - 'that is not the way they say it in France'.

I was disapproving of the Foafs - will they not have to tell the UK authorities that they are emigrating to France otherwise they will be prosecuted for not sending their children to school.

As for your grandchildren it seemed very narrow minded of the UK school. The ability of your grandchildren to talk about anoother culture and also the speed of learning French.

[EuroTrash]

Quillan - the NHS refund the 30% copayment is another thing that stopped on 1 July. It was never guaranteed, as you say sometimes people got it and sometimes they didn't, but now nobody will.

Regarding emergency treatment, I believe that in most cases emergency treatment is free for everybody.

[Quillan]

I didn't realise so much has changed to be honest. Makes me more glad that when we came we did, what we believed at the time, all the 'right' things and don't have any of this to worry about. It seems quite complicated compared to before.

[Araucaria]

It's nice hearing from someone like Chancer with positive and sensible views!

If the EU is truly committed to the idea of  "free movement of labour" - and it's a principle that I think is very valuable - then it ought to be easier for people of working age to move around in the EU - they shouldn't be constantly tripped up by rules that clearly haven't been thought through. At present we've got something like "free movement of pensioners" - not that I disapprove of that, but it seems a touch unfair on the younger generation.

Currently much of the bureaucratic paper-pushing is based on the idea that when a young Brit steps off the ferry at Calais he has at that point already made up his mind that he'll either be staying for a holiday (of less than 8 weeks if it's a Child Benefit bureaucrat) or has decided to stay permanently. Or at least sufficiently permanently for it to be worth his while to jump through all the hoops that settling in France (or any other EU country) requires. But often life just isn't that simple.

It's only since the 19th century that the state has begun to control so many aspects of our life: where we are "legally" allowed to live, where we can "legally" work, what services we are "legally" allowed to offer, what changes we can "legally" make to our houses, when we can "legally" light a bonfire, whether we can "legally" manage without insurance, what we can "legally" say in public, whether we can "legally" enter the country we were born in without a passport ..... the list is almost endless.

Personally I don't think all of this is really progress. But what do I know?

[EuroTrash]

Chancer, you can refuse to believe whatever you don't like but the fact is that if you don't live in the UK you are not entitled to NHS cover unless you are a pensioner, an overseas worker or one of the other specified categories. And if you are not entitled to NHS cover, neither are you entitled to use a UK EHIC card. The NHS covers UK residents while they are in the UK and while they're on holiday, and it extends cover to some categories of people who live abroad such as pensioners and overseas workers but not automatically, you have to apply to see if you meet the criteria. If everybody could use EHICs ad lib why would anybody bother applying for an S1? Obviously it is hard to police which is why people get away with it, but that's a different issue.

Most NHS Trusts give being out of the UK for 3 consecutive months as the cut off point. Read any NHS Trust website and see what they say, and then dismiss it.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Araucaria"]It's nice hearing from someone like Chancer with positive and sensible views!

If the EU is truly committed to the idea of  "free movement of labour" - and it's a principle that I think is very valuable - then it ought to be easier for people of working age to move around in the EU - they shouldn't be constantly tripped up by rules that clearly haven't been thought through. At present we've got something like "free movement of pensioners" - not that I disapprove of that, but it seems a touch unfair on the younger generation.

Currently much of the bureaucratic paper-pushing is based on the idea that when a young Brit steps off the ferry at Calais he has at that point already made up his mind that he'll either be staying for a holiday (of less than 8 weeks if it's a Child Benefit bureaucrat) or has decided to stay permanently. Or at least sufficiently permanently for it to be worth his while to jump through all the hoops that settling in France (or any other EU country) requires. But often life just isn't that simple.

[/quote]

To be fair, the free movement of labour is really not that complicated. I could, whilst I was still doing it, pop over to France and work for a few days or a week with no constraints, although I lived and was based in the UK. I billed my clients from there, and received payment into my UK bank account. But I wasn't living in France. Today, thousands of people come to the UK - the majority (contrary to popular myth) with the absolute intention of finding a job. And I believe that the majority of them DO find jobs. So, again, no problem.

Much has been made in the press and political circles of the fact that there's a second group of migrants: those who come with no intention of finding work, and whose primary objective is to capitalise on the generosity of the benefits system, the health services and schools. I'm not specifically talking about any one country here, as these days the same sentiments exist in most EU countries who have been suffering from large-scale unemployment and financial problems.

It just so happens that whilst the UK has been the recipient of a lot of young, healthy people of working age, places like Spain and France have seen an influx of pensioners. A minority of migrants from the UK to these countries have been younger people who have been looking for work. In the current climate, it's those people who have struggled, because work just isn't available, even to the indigenous population. And, as a consequence, there's been something of a backlash against these "benefit scroungers" who want to enjoy the benefits available to them but are unable (or unwilling) to contribute to the economy through paying taxes earned from work.

Now, I'm absolutely not suggesting that "your" family fall into this latter category, but I am suggesting that this could be how they are perceived...witness the advancing and increasing levels of support for the FN in France. As a consequence, things which might have been, or should be relatively simple and straightforward are becoming more difficult and complex as France, in common with many other EU countries, adopts protectionist measures to ensure that available resources are directed towards its own citizens.

The whole system isn't really set up for people of working age with families who essentially want to take a holiday that's considered to be of an abnormal length. And that's really what this family are planning, rather than any commited move to another country.

[idun]

Quillans link to the EU was very clear, especially what to do after three months AND that the host country can actually kick people out if they are unable to support themselves. Fair enough IMO, I object to anyone moving to the UK from another EU country and simply claiming..... trouble is that  EU people have to be treat as everyone else and the system in the UK helps too quickly.

Re the EHIC, well it isn't just woolly Chancer there are rules and if push came to shove, then the Department of Health or Works and Pensions could get hold of the actual rules. LOL your name is how you like to live, 'chance it' and it seems that everything has worked out just fine.  And from what you have said, you are a single bloke who could probably move on very easily if things didn't work out.

Two things about this couple with young kids.

Once they rent their property out in the UK to live in France, then they are really french residents, as they have no where to live in the UK. And that invalidates the EHIC,  they are not 'on holiday' if they have no UK residence..... when it is rented out.

They should, as was said, let the child benefit people know.

They have to let the school know.

IF they end up sending too many forms back to Newcastle they will check up on them. They can and do check on NI contributions and UK residence.

Yes, I know lots have fallen through the cracks, but they actually do do check up.

Would I do this with young children, not on your life I wouldn't.

Araucaria, you never said how your daughter and family had health care

in France either, I did ask. If she kept her UK home then it would just

be a long holiday and she would be covered with an EHIC.  Still, oncerning these people you know, to me it feels

like you just want us all to say what these people will want to hear

and I am not going to do that, and others haven't too. I'm not perfect, I get things wrong in

life and have probably done things I shouldn't have done. But as we are

not a lucky family and IF things can go really wrong then they tend to, I

do try and keep within the boundaries set by various governments in the

countries in which 'I CHOSE TO LIVE'! It is respect for that country

and it's people, and when can such respect be a bad thing.

And tax, well that is as far as I am concerned the least of the issues this couple has to deal with.

[EuroTrash]

"It's only since the 19th century that the state has begun to control so many aspects of our life: where we are "legally" allowed to live, where we can "legally" work, what services we are "legally" allowed to offer, what changes we can "legally" make to our houses, when we can "legally" light a bonfire, whether we can "legally" manage without insurance, what we can "legally" say in public, whether we can "legally" enter the country we were born in without a passport ..... the list is almost endless."

If everybody was socially responsible and everybody agreed on what was fair and acceptable, and everybody respected each other and acted considerately, then the state wouldn't need to get involved and we wouldn't need any of these rules would we.

Unfortunately people aren't all like that, most of us are selfish by nature and if there weren't rules then some people would have no qualms about doing exactly what they wanted, regardless of the impact - direct or indirect - on other people.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="idun"]

Araucaria, you never said how your daughter and family had health care

in France either, I did ask. If she kept her UK home then it would just

be a long holiday and she would be covered with an EHIC.  Still, oncerning these people you know, to me it feels

like you just want us all to say what these people will want to hear

and I am not going to do that, and others haven't too. I'm not perfect, I get things wrong in

life and have probably done things I shouldn't have done. But as we are

not a lucky family and IF things can go really wrong then they tend to, I

do try and keep within the boundaries set by various governments in the

countries in which 'I CHOSE TO LIVE'! It is respect for that country

and it's people, and when can such respect be a bad thing.

And tax, well that is as far as I am concerned the least of the issues this couple has to deal with.

[/quote]

Idun - I think the question of needing medical care simply didn't arise for my daughter: six months isn't all that long. They didn't take out any insurance other than assurance scolaire which the school required, if that was what you wanted to hear. If they'd had some kind of serious illness they might have been able to go straight back to the UK for long-term care.

But no, I don't want people here to say just what I want to hear (though that would be nice). What I asked for was advice about practical issues, and I might say now that would be the issues that actually arise rather than the theoretical ones you'd have if you tried to dot every i and cross every t. I think only one person so far has given an example of a problem in practice, and that was being caught by the rules for Family Allowances - mentioned by HoneySuckleDreams - but the thousands of pounds HSD mentioned would take quite a while to notch up as the current rate of Child Benefit for two children is less than £1800 per annum. How did they get spotted and prosecuted, HSD?

I hope my friends don't sound like the Daily Mail's nightmare benefit scroungers. Yes, they'd be getting free education in France rather than the UK, but the village school (the one opposite their ruin) is undersubscribed and the local people would welcome one or two more children in the school, to keep the numbers up and protect the school a little from being closed or merged. They'd have their healthcare paid for by the UK government. They'd probably qualify for very little in the way of cash benefits while looking for work in the UK, and other than (UK) Child Benefit, they wouldn't expect to claim any. They'd get nothing in France.

If anyone would like to suggest how they could take advantage of the system, well they can post here publicly or PM me, but I don't think they expected to do so, and I think neither they nor I would know how to start.

[Chancer]

I have PM'd you, not I hasten to add with détails of how to exploit or take advantage of the system, the Pm was sent before reading your post!

[KathyF]

One purely practical point, given that the family would be living in a very rural department, is that broadband internet isn't cheap here and in some places the speeds are very low. Since Mr F works in IT, a good broadband service would seem to me to be essential and something to be researched before departure.

[EuroTrash]

"If anyone would like to suggest how they could take advantage of the system," - well this for a start: "They'd have their healthcare paid for by the UK government."

But they are tightening up. From the EHIC application form:

I confirm that all persons named on this application are ordinarily resident in the UK. I understand that should my dependants or I remain abroad, to live or work, then the relevant authorities must be informed. I understand that this card is not an entitlement card for NHS services, or proof of identity.

We will not transfer your Personal Data outside of the European Economic Area or disclose it to any third party other than the Department for Work and Pensions (for the purpose of validating EHIC claims) and the NHS Counter Fraud and Security Management Service and Department of Health – International Division (in order to prevent and detect

fraud and errors).

[Araucaria]

Thanks very much for the comment about broadband, Kathy. Definitely something to consider.

I don't know whether other people have followed the links on Child Benefit and noticed that - surprise, surprise - there are different and more generous rules for Civil Servants working abroad? I wonder who drew the rules up? But I also saw that it says quite clearly that you can continue to claim Child Benefit it if you are living with your children in an EU country and are paying NI contributions as a self-employed person. As the Class 2 rate is only a couple of pounds a week I'd say that was a bargain for someone in the Foaf's position.

What it says on the official website is this:

You can get Child Benefit for children living with you within the EEA or Switzerland. You must pay National Insurance in the UK (ie you’re employed or self-employed) or ....

Perhaps it doesn't really mean what it says - again, has anyone actually claimed Child Benefit like this?

[EuroTrash]

I'm not a fan of civil servants but I do appreciate that they don't usually get to choose where they and their families are posted to. They are sent. Many companies that post their employees abroad, also feel obliged to provide perks such as free health insurance for the family.

Of course it means what it says. If you earn most of your income/work most of your working hours in the UK, either for yourself or for an employer, and you and/or your family live abroad, you can apply to remain in the UK social security system. If your application is successful you will continue to receive UK child benefit, you'll get a workers S1 to cover your healthcare abroad, you'll continue to accrue pension entitlement in the UK etc. But you do need to have an established record of self-employment immediately prior to the time you leave the UK and you do need to continue working in the UK after you leave. You can't declare yourself self-employed one day, move abroad a fortnight later and not come back to the UK for a year, and expect this to be accepted.

The application form you fill in asks for details of your working pattern and the accommodation you have available to you in the UK (yes I have filled these forms in, not for child benefit but to get a workers S1 when I first moved, and the amount of detail they want is painful).

[Araucaria]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]....

Of course it means what it says. If you earn most of your income/work most of your working hours in the UK, either for yourself or for an employer, and you and/or your family live abroad, you can apply to remain in the UK social security system.... [/quote]

ET - that isn't quite what the official UK website says - but maybe it's a simplified version on there.

I don't see anything about "having an established record of self-employment" or "earning most of your income" or "working most of your working hours in the UK", and as far as the latter at least is concerned I really don't see how it could be compatible with "having your children living with you within the EEA". Of course if you earn comparatively little in the EU country where you live it might just be possible to earn most of your income in the UK, but what it actually says there is just this: "You must pay National Insurance in the UK".

Would you have a link to the forms that have to be filled in?

[EuroTrash]

Yes - but you can't decide off your own bat that you're going to pay NICs. It's up to them to decide whether you're entitled to or not.

This is the form you fill in to apply for an S1. I imagine that child benefit is a consequence of this - either you get the whole caboodle, or none.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/ca8454.pdf

There are lots of scenarios where the breadwinner commutes to work in the UK Mon-Fri, or part of the week, or one week in two or whatever, and earns nothing in the country where the family home is; or where somebody's work is split between two countries, eg they set up a subsidiary business abroad and flit between the two; or they go abroad temporarily to work on a project but keep their UK business going and intend to return to the UK when the project abroad is finished. However, if you live abroad and work abroad (or don't work anywhere) and there is no significant UK connection, you must pay social security contributions in the country where you live and work. You can only continue paying in the UK if there genuinely is a significant UK connection.

[Quillan]

The link I gave about living and working in the EU is well worth a read and will explain in a broad sense what your entitled to and what your not.

The thing about the statement with regards to your freedom to live and work in any EU member state should be interpreted as just that 'Live and Work' and not Live only. You can't just turn up and live in another country unless you can support yourself. Likewise with regards to arriving and looking for work there is a limit on the time period.

Whatever time the health card is valid for the simple rule applies, a maximum of three months after that the following applies

"Other economically inactive persons (e.g. unemployed, retired, etc.) must also have sufficient resources for themselves and their family not to become a burden on the host EU country’s social assistance system during their residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover."

Now thats the rules and if you intend to not disclose when you arrived so as to appear to stay within those rules then your a cheat pure and simple. What this guy has to work out is if it is worth the risk with his family should something happen. Don't forget with the current political bias in France towards the FN and the fact these people are British there are those French who are only to happy to 'denounce' people they think are breaking the rules. There are also some Brits who pay their way etc and are 100% legally here who also are quite happy to call to the authorities.

[Pommier]

Whilst they might have got away with it without children, I don't see any way that they would with two young children.

They've got to tell the UK school to avoid prosecution, the school presumably notify the relevant government department, and I'd suspect that would be the end of the child benefit.

In France, the school would again be the stumbling block as it'd be pretty hard to claim that they were recent arrivals if the kids have been in school for 6 months.

Anyhow, I don't think it's worth the risk with children.

[EuroTrash]

+1 to Quillan's post. If your friends read Quillan's link on living and working in the EU, and also google to find the rules on cross border workers, just to clarify the criteria for situations where social security benefits can be transferred from one country to another - they will have have a pretty good idea of how the system operates, and they'll also see that a clear line is drawn between workers and inactifs.

[Araucaria]

Thanks ET - that's helpful. I do wonder if it is the same form for Child Benefits, but I accept that it might be.

I would take issue with the view that "you can't decide off your own bat that you're going to pay NICs. It's up to them to decide whether you're entitled to or not". I don't think that's right. Mostly the UK system nowadays depends on just that - after all, it's called "Self Assessment" and you wouldn't get very far if you said you were waiting for HMRC to decide whether you had to pay or not.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="Pommier"]They've got to tell the UK school to avoid prosecution, the school presumably notify the relevant government department.[/quote]

The school doesn't. Personal experience - well, my daughter's anyway.

[EuroTrash]

Self assessment is for income tax.

NICs are a completely different issue, dealt with by a different office.

If you are liable to pay NICs, you are automatically sent a bill. If they decide you're not liable, they don't send you a bill simple as that. Either you meet the criteria or you don't (the questions on the form are designed to establish this - they aren't random questions, each and every question is connected to the criteria) or possibly you don't but they say you do, or more likely you think you do but they say you don't - in which case it goes on and on and on with them asking you unanswerable questions until you lose the will to live, and give up.

Been there done that and ended up with a file of correspondence with the NIC Overseas Team so thick it would almost sink a ferry.

[PaulT]

Has this gone on long enough. Clearly Araucaria only wants to hear one thing and not anything negative.

So Araucaria it is an excellent, nay, superb wheeze. Tell them to get themselves over to France as soon as possible and have a great time with nothing to worry about.

[idun]

Yes, PaulT, this has become surreal hasn't it. Feels to me like there has been lots of headscratching and chin rubbing and 'don't know about that, that can't be right'...... as if we'd make this stuff up.

I never knew anyone who broke any rules or did as they pleased, because all the brits I knew all came to France to jobs and worked and were in the french system from day one. And on top of that I didn't live near any of them, even those that are very close friends lived over 50 miles away from us.

Unless these people are fools, then they will go on the ambafrance website and all the UK Gov web sites about moving to France and get all the info they need. And they can call the various UK government departments. That's the easiest way to get information, it couldn't actually be more simple these days.

And on that, I think I haven't really got much more to say.

[andyh4]

Just one thought on the practical side.

I assume that Mr. F will be claiming unemployment benefit or whatever it is called. He is of course entitled to do so. How is that going to work from France? What if he is called for interview to show what steps he has (n't) taken to find employment?

It is an area I am totally unfamiliar with so I may have this completely a about f.