P&O Leaving Portsmouth

[Miki]

[quote]I'm sorry for the employees, but; Ta ta P&O. I for one won't miss your unreliability, high prices, surly staff and stupid sailing times. I switched to BF some time ago and just pray that they don...[/quote]

Nick,

What about the fiasco this summer with the Pont Aven,  many people felt terribly let down and the excuses pedalled out by BF were rather poor. Then there is the tie up with Condor from Poole to Saint Malo, this fastcraft had to cancel several times this season and people sent to Portsmouth (to travel to Caen or Le Havre) from Poole, many passengers claimed that they were not told of any cancellation and in several cases, the people had already passed Portsmouth on their way to Poole. 

I have been travelling to and from France for many years and to be honest, I think both have their plus's and minus's. I can't remember being troubled much by P&O but the same goes for BF.

[BJSLIV]

Its funny how we all have our own perceptions. In 17 years of crossing, perhaps 6 times a year, I have always found P&O reliable, and have never arrived more than half an hour late. The staff were always pleasant perhaps a little  dozy, but never surly. Now if I was voting in the messed about stakes then what about Hoverspeed?,  but thats probably more to do with the general operational problems that go with Seacats, and as for surly what about Transmanche- service with a smile!. Organisational competence, that must be trying to get through the tolls at Eurotunnel on a Bank Holiday.

Perhaps we will all have to hope that Condors new owners have something special to offer on The Western Channel.

 

 

[Tonyfr35]

Hi for anyone intrested in the RMT point of view i.e. Val 50 have a look at www.rmt.org.uk I have been a member for many years...

[Pas delle yeux Rhône qua nous]

We've got a place in Brittany and live very near Portsmouth. The demise of P&O is going to be a big blow. We really like Brittany Ferries but they are often more expensive and we have sailed P&O for nothing by using Tesco tokens. Now we have no choice...I'm sure there must be a lot of people like us on the South Coast who are desperate for Flybe or Ryanair to start flying to Dinard from Southampton or Bournemouth. Perhaps this is the time to start some lobbying. If they know there is a groundswell of support, they may consider this as a viable option..

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Nick, What about the fiasco this summer with the Pont Aven, many people felt terribly let down and the excuses pedalled out by BF were rather poor. Then there is the tie up with Condor from Poole to...[/quote]

As someone else has said, it is all a matter of personal experience. I have never travelled Plymouth-Roscoff, so I was not affected by the PA failures. However, I have travelled Pompey-Brittany plenty; P&O failed 100% of the time (for a night crossing, a late departure I find more irritating than a late arrival) - honest, of (perhaps) 6 trips 100% were "failures". On BF (40 trips?) I have been late once .....

Sorry to all P&O supporters, but there is a reason why BF are succeeding where P&O failed, whether it is "unfair competition" (whatever that is) or whatever, BF are still here & P&O aren't.

[Miki]

Sorry to all P&O supporters, but there is a reason why BF are succeeding where P&O failed, whether it is "unfair competition" (whatever that is) or whatever, BF are still here & P&O aren't.

It is not anything to do with people being supporters or not, of either company.

Your record with P&O is incredible and has to be a one off surely ? How can I go for donkey's years and hardly remember any extra problems with P&O compared to BF.

 I suspect other travellers can remember numerous occasions when the evening ferries on the western routes (and other schedules of course) leave later than the written departure time, offering varying excuses but invariably arrive on time in France (UK) and that's with both BF and P&O.

BF have been "bailed out" on a few occasions (against European legislation and therefore making it unfair competition) and have since gone on to being a more solvent enterprise. P&O have not been offered this help, so there is possibly one difference.

Another surely has to be the management, as I said before, one minute they are praising themselves for turning the corner, then they are hiring low paid workers and then the demise of 3 western routes.

Whatever it is, the outcome will not be good for the paying public, unless of course, a competitor arrives to challenge BF on the western routes. 

 

[Diana]

Does anyone know when the last crossing will be?

Diana

[BJSLIV]

I don't think a date has been announced. Various comments have been made  from January to Mid 2005.

It will all depend on negotiations, transfers to BrittanyFerries, clearance from Brussels...

[Russethouse]

Just thinking about next year - there are so many companies that offer ferry crossings as part of the package, often the big camping groups as well as others. With only BF sailings, will there be many crossings available for the independant traveller, it might not be so much of what the fare is, more like can I actually book at all

[Phoenix]

The port authority will lose a lot of money when P&O leave Portsmouth , I think they will work very hard to get another operator to replace them , as for BF , the last trip we took on Sunday 19th September , Portsmouth -St. Malo return ( 5day ) cost £140 , and there were about 50 cars on board , so not exactly overflowing , I don`t think they will raise their prices , they may even lower them to fill the ships and get people spending on food and drinks etc.

Only time will tell , will keep an eye on the local paper and let you know if there`s any more info.

Regards, Jude

[BJSLIV]

I note that P&O have said that they will be going "up-market" on the Dover-Calais route, cutting passenger capacity on each ferry , improving the quality of the experience, discouraging the cheap and cheerful end of the market.

[Russethouse]

Which is odd as the demise of the 'day tripper' seems to have been their downfall!

[Jirac18]

There are too many millions of pounds to be earnt for this to become a long term problem. There is a large market in Brits travelling to and from France. I can't imagine the French Government or businessmen missing out on it all. These things do not happen overnight and I'm sure we will soon hear exactly who will step into P&O's shoes long term.

We rely on cross channel travel for our income and I am not worrying yet. May be you think I need to raise my rose coloured specs but I don't think so. As my mum used to say "It will all come out in the wash".

Sorry to all those left out of work it is truely tough.

[Peterm]

As to when the final sailings on the P&O Western Channel routes might be, although the company themselves (typically) aren't saying anything I suspect the analyst on the BBC news this evening had it pretty much right. He pointed out that there will now be a three month "consultation" with the TUs which will bring P&O into January, when passenger numbers are at their lowest. Don't expect any to be running by February.

(We're still proceeding with signing the acte authentique on Friday on our new house in Manche though (30 mins from Cherbourg) - we love the area and we'll get there somehow!)

Peter and Sue

[Tina]

I too feel sorry for the P&O staff and it is going to hit an awful lot of people. We are in B.F. Property Owners club and much prefer their ships and think the food is excellent value for money - both in the self-service and the restaurant.

We had to travel with P&O in June as unfortunately the times of B.F. weren't convienient (we were fetching our daughter from Paris and it had to be the weekend and it was the Euro 2004 football final on the Sunday - so we had to be back!) and we thought the ships were drab and dreary and the food expensive and disappointing - no lovely salon de thé etc. 

We are lucky (except for distance!) being in the Midlands as we can use Plymouth and Portsmouth - usually going to St Malo and back from Roscoff.

 

Yes, there have been problems with B.F. but on the whole we find them very helpful - such as the case with the Pont Aven thi summer - our friends who were staying at our place in Brittany had a phone call at home as we also did  - they were extremely helpful and offered lots of alternatives - and they would have phoned us in France but had no record or our number (which they now have).

 

I'm glad we didn't take up the share option with P&O as a backup - will people get their money back I wonder?

[Lollie]

[quote]My glass is always half empty, my husband's half full. My reaction was the same as Lajamerie, Brittany having free rein to put their prices up even higher. However, my husband thinks it could leave ...[/quote]

My friend received a phone call here in France today from Brittany Ferries saying her night crossing back here from Portsmouth to St Malo would not be running on Jan 2 and that it will be a day crossing instead!!!! She has changed to a night crossing to Caen, what is going on, no night crossings back to France after New Year weekend!!

[Hereford]

We gave up using the long Caen/Cherourg/Le Havre crossings a long time ago. Although our (then) holiday home is near Avranches we used the tunnel, with property owners big discounts.

Now we live in France permanently and do not qualify for property owners club we have switched to Speedferries. Even with a night in Boulogne before the crossing we find it cheaper! Also we have a leisurely day driving up to Boulogne - ignoring motorways.

Hereford

 

[Jirac18]

My God you are obnoxious. Why is that you can never enter into discussion without being rude. Nobody is suggesting that ferries be run as charities but we are in search of good value service.

[Miki]

".........The directors of plc's have duty to their shareholders to produce the best possible return on their investments"

Only one tiny flaw in that Dunny, the board of P&O are proving once again just what a bunch of t*****s they are.

Sure you have to answer to the shareholders but this board simply aren't delivering to them. They are taking the easy option as they have run out of ideas on how P&O Western routes can run for a profit. Now call me crazy but from a company that showed a handsome profit very recently from their ferry operations to go so heavily in to the red, whilst their oppo are going from strength to strength, must mean something. If I was a shareholder I know what I would be telling the board.

The thing is, the stock market on hearing of the demise of these routes, saw the shares in P&O rise. Now they also rose when the route showed a healthy profit but that took a lot of hard work to get there. It all points to a cop out by the board in appeasing the shareholders. What they have done is of course is by far the the easiest option to helping shares rise but this is surely only in the short term.

I can't see the routes being left without any opposition and I think there will be some company step in to challenge BF.

[Jirac18]

I wish I had the patience with Dunnrunnin to give a clear and accurate response like that Miki.

I don't know why I bothered to respond at all in fact but he/she gets my goat

[Will]

I wrote a reply to this topic, but got sidetracked by work e-mails, fell foul of the time-out thing and lost it.

I've just got back from a maritime trade show, for shipbuilding and equipment rather than ferry operation or travel trade, but even so the P&O announcement took people by surprise. Perhaps the speed of the Brittany Ferries response was an even bigger surprise, as they obviously had information that wasn't general knowledge in the industry. It will do nothing to dispel the rumours about ferry operator cartels.

I go along with Mik about the need to make a profit, though ironically P&O manages to make a nice profit out of its shareholders as well as a loss for them by the way it operates its so-called discount structure including property owner and shareholder schemes. Rather than being the stereotypical retired ex-pat wanting to go home on the cheap, I have to use the ferry regularly because I need to continue my work (and being tax deductible the cost is perhaps less important for me).

I am also in accord with Nick about always using BF myself rather then P&O. Cost and reliability do come into it, though neither has been 100% reliable or 100% poor for me. But as a marine journalist I look at other things, like the standard of the ships, their equipment and maintenance, compliance with safety standards, the number of safety-related deficiencies found (I have access to a database on the subject which is a bit of an eye-opener) and the attitude and nationality of the officers and crew. It is my opinion that P&O Portsmouth has been a bit of a sub-standard operation for some time.

I'm not surprised they are pulling out, but surprised they are doing it now. A year ago P&O rather surreptitiously cut back, though at Dover rather than Portsmouth. The company dropped a freight ferry, replacing it on the freight service with the multi-purpose Pride of Burgundy, so in effect lost a passenger ship. At the same time onboard services, particularly on freight vessels and night crossings, were reduced. Although Portsmouth was the big money loser, P&O actually poured more money into it, by chartering a Danish-owned catamaran for a new Portsmouth-Caen service. That, by P&O standards, was a big success, so the total pull-out sounds like an over-reaction.

One of the problems according to P&O was the high port charges incurred through using Le Havre, which it could save by switching to Ouistreham. This will still affect BF if it takes over the route, though maybe as a French-owned company there will be a more sympathetic treatment by the Le Havre authorities? BF will also need to invest in the two Le Havre ships. In the early 1990s they won just about every ferry award going as Olau Hollandia and Olau Britannia working between Sheerness and Vlissingen, but haven't aged well in P&O's control.

The Cherbourg route should be safe - BF ran a summer weekday service to Cherbourg in 2004 and would probably extend this.

Another point - you can join the BF property owner club from an address in France, or if you prefer to pay in Euros and live in France there is the similar Cercle Voyageur.

It will be interesting to see who takes over the capacity, because there is capacity to continue operating these routes though maybe not as P&O did. Condor Ferries or its owner Commodore Shipping is one logical successor, as it already has a presence at Portsmouth and Cherbourg. Hoverspeed is another; it is owned by Sea Containers, and a moral victory over P&O ferries would be a boost for chairman James Sherwood's ego. Don't rule out a Transmanche-type proposal from the French regional councils either.

Anyway, that's the essence of the longer reply I lost - I'd be glad to expand on any of the points if you are interested.

[Jirac18]

Fair point Dunrunnin.

[Miki]

Blige me Dunny,

Dinner will be sweet tonight, you do "serious" as well and not only that, I kind of agree as well with your posting. Too true, no one should never take into account how cheap travel back to the UK is, in to the picture on moving here, especially Air travel but we can still get a little uptight, that the servers are not up to the job and are charging silly money and, always on the dates we personally want to go on

Bill, I don't think that the Val de Loire and the Bretagne are wearing too good at the moment either and the Duc was (is) a terrible old tub !! I remember when the Prides of Bilbao, Portsmouth and Le Havre were "new" to their routes and weren't they shiny and "all singing" but years on the water take their toll, just think how prune like you would be Bill if you spent that long in the briny (sp) !!

[Will]

Miki, having had a few years at sea I know exactly what you mean - not exactly prune like but definitely rusty round the edges. Haven't been on Bretagne for a while, but she, Normandie, Barfleur, and the Prides of Le Havre and Portsmouth are all about the same age, though Bretagne is a couple of years older. Normandie is wearing pretty well, Barfleur was built primarily as a freight ferry so is a bit less glitzy and more robust. But those two were built in Finland to arguably higher standards than the French-built Bretagne.

But I'm thinking about other things apart from cosmetics, e.g. mechanical problems and collision damage. Although BF's record in such respects is better than P&O's, BF is far  from perfect - look at Pont Aven, though it's still debatable whether that problem is down to BF, the German shipbuilders, the design of the ship or a combination of these factors.

It may be to do with being chartered rather than owned, Val de Loire was on charter (though I acknowledge it could now be owned through a BF-controlled holding company - these things are not very transparent, even on a semi-official database like the Equasis one I have) and is not the best in the fleet by a long way. Although no port safety control inspections are recorded since 2001 it has a fairly poor-looking record in 1998-2000. It was built in 1987 and had a hard life in Scandinavia as the Nils Holgersson. My database tells me, interestingly, that VDL was built by the same Bremerhaven shipyard as the Portsmouth-Le Havre sisters, and is closely related to them in design terms.

Duc de Normandie, considering the age of the ship (built 1978) comes out much better, a couple of PSC inspections with 7 defects (in equipment though rather than the actual ship or company procedures) but another two or three recently with a clean sheet, something which itself is rather rare. I agree it's a bit of a tub now and has been since its last couple of seasons at Portsmouth. Interestingly it doesn't figure in BF's winter schedules as from today, so it's either having a longish refit (unlikely given its age) or being retired to the Greek islands. If the latter it means BF will be a ship short for the peak season in 2005, so taking on some of the P&O fleet somehow begins to look like a logical, and planned, move.

The old Quiberon was, latterly, a crappy ship with a dreadful crew, proving BF loses interest in its old ships. I remember going to Spain and back on it in 1988 or thereabouts and it was fine, although it has a bad engine room fire not long afterwards (not guilty, your honour).

A BBC report I've just seen suggests that BF could take over the P&O Portsmouth operation by January, but is likely to take longer.

And you and me agreeing with Mik - must be a red letter day.

[Miki]

I recently looked at the safety standards and inspection of the channel ferries, was it you Bill that gave us the URL? Or perhaps I stumbled upon it looking for other matters ! As you say, many of them had records that are best kept quiet about but not dangerous enough to "ground" the ferry.

I have just booked Tina and youngest lad on the Visit Britain offer with P&O, it is 134€ for a 5 day return (against a 3 day return for 138€ with B.F) We are quiet next week and yours truly is to be left in charge !!

Anyway, whilst reserving I asked the lad on the other end (their website was working OK but I telephoned them as I wanted to be sure the ferry would actually be operational on Sunday!!) what was the likely date of annulation of P&O western routes and he said as far as they were all aware, it would not be before January 2005 but after that, then my guess was as good as his !!

Not sure whether or not they have reduced sailings from previous years but it is one ferry out on Sunday (no choice) and a choice of 2 back on Thursday (11.15 or 23.45) Seem to remember more choices than that didn't I?