Cost of living in France

[John]

My wife (aged 64) and I (aged 66) want to sell up in UK and move to France , maybe Nord-Pas or Normandy and I am trying to find out the overall cost of living in France, compared to UK!!!  Together we have State and Private pensions worth approx. £27,000 after tax.

I have heard that income tax is high in France, but do pensioners get reduced rates? Also with the Council Tax in UK ( now £1700 p.a.) , Petrol prices (currently 90 pence a litre) and energy bills sky high, surely the French costs for these items must make a huge saving.

We also have to pay about £1300 per annum for private health insurance (which excludes cancer and heart attacks!!!) 

I understand that food etc costs about the same , although the French food is much better quality , and of course wine is about a quarter of the UK price.

Can anyone help please???

 

Many thanks,

John

[BJSLIV]

You will be able to live comfortably on that level of income.

I have heard that income tax is high in France,(Income Tax is usually lower in France than in the UK) but do pensioners get reduced rates? Also with the Council Tax in UK ( now £1700 p.a.) (Yes, but your income means that you will not qualify), Petrol prices (currently 90 pence a litre) (French 4* currently 85p)and energy bills sky high, surely the French costs for these items must make a huge saving.(Energy Prices broadly similar, but people tend to  buy big , draughty houses that cost a fortune to heat)

We also have to pay about £1300 per annum for private health insurance (which excludes cancer and heart attacks!!!) (Your Top Up Insurance will cost a similar amount)

I understand that food etc costs about the same , although the French food is much better quality , and of course wine is about a quarter of the UK price.(Agreed, cheap wine is cheaper in France, quality wine about the same price)

[Sprogster]

If you are going to rely on a UK sterling source income do not forget to factor in an allowance for currency fluctuation, as there is increasing sentiment in the currency markets towards a weaker £ in the future.

So if the £ depreciated 20% against the Euro, what impact would it have on your French buying power?

[Sunday Driver]

Taxation/heathcare works out marginally cheaper overall in France.

A quick fag packet calculation - £27,000 net of UK tax would equate to around 50,000 euros gross.  French income tax on that would be 4000 euros.  Because you're in receipt of a UK state retirement pension, you won't have to pay French state healthcare contributions, although as BJ says, you'll pay for your top-up.  That means your healthcare costs are largely covered - you won't have to pay out to see the doctor, or pay for prescriptions, etc.

So, 4,000 euros income tax plus 1,300 euros insurance top-up  - now compare that to your current UK income tax bill (which funds your "free" NHS heathcare).....

 

 

[Alan Zoff]

You can be sure that a great many of your neighbours will be surviving on far less.

[TreizeVents]

At that level of income would it not be smarter to pay all the income tax in France?  Don't the French want you to declare all your income, not income after paying tax in the UK?  Can you choose to pay income tax in the UK and then more income tax in France?  Still, I am sure this has been disucssed in depth elsewhere on the forum.

In any case, you will be very well off indeed in comparison with almost every one of your neighbours, especially if you own your house and have capital left over, which is almost certain to be the case.

[Sunday Driver]

John will have no choice about where he pays tax.  As he will be resident in France, he will be taxed here.  In practice he will pre notify HMRC of his move and once he has made his first French tax declaration, HMRC will amend his tax status so that his future UK pensions are paid tax free. At the same time, he will receive a refund of any UK tax paid since the date of his move.

 

 

[John]

Hi everyone,

Many thanks for your advice.

My income calculation was wrong,  I receive about £18,000 GROSS as a private pension , which is taxed.  I then get about £7,500 as State Pension Retirement Benefit and my wife gets about £ 2500 as State Pension Benefit.  Obviously these State payments are not taxed, as they are deemed benefits.  Would this make a difference for us in France?

I pay about £1700 Per annum Council Tax (band F) in the Uk.  Would the equivalent (?Tax Fonciere) be much lower?

Thanks again,

John

[LisaJ]

Just a few things to add, John. Petrol is cheaper, but you are likely to spend more time in your car driving to shops etc. Food costs are overall about the same (wine cheaper, good meat and fish more expensive), but we don't find the range and quality of some items as good as England. Apart from food, we find shopping a bit frustrating sometimes; in particular we miss good department stores especially John Lewis. However, this means your money goes further because there is not as much to spend it on. We live in Normandy and have insulated our house to a very high standard which means we heat it from one woodburner, plus about 2 hours of central heating in the morning; so this does work out cheaper (Just as well because we have a lot of snow this morning!) We love the countryside and the peace and quiet and are keen gardeners, so the spring, summer and autumn are wonderful. We do find the winters a bit hard sometimes and it is very, very quiet - it sometimes feels as if everyone hibernates!

Having said all that we love it here and I think the concensus of opinion is that overall the cost of living is a bit cheaper, plus of course you get far more house and land for your money than in England.

regards

Lisa

[Sunday Driver]

If your gross pensions amount to £28,000 - 40,800 euros - then your income tax will be 2,708 euros.  You will also pay tax (and social charges) on any investment/savings interest you may receive.

The property taxes (tax d'habitation and tax fonciere) will vary dependent upon the size of your house, amount of land, number of bedrooms, etc as well as the commune/department in which you will be situated. Provided you don't end up buying a chateau or a property in Paris, you will probably pay less than your UK council tax.

 

[Cjlaws]

John - your UK state pension is paid gross, but it it is taxable in the UK. It's not a non-taxable benifit as you seem to think. The situation in France would be as Sunday Driver has explained.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

If your gross pensions amount to £28,000 - 40,800 euros - then your income tax will be 2,708 euros.  You will also pay tax (and social charges) on any investment/savings interest you may receive.

[/quote]

Hi SD,

Can you point me to the website that gives this rate of income tax.  Our income is below the tax threshold, so I had not realised what the higher figures were.  I thought that if we pop over the line, we would be taxed at 5% for the first few thousand euros.  Yet this rather large income is taxed at only 6.6%.  Some people complain that income tax is high, but it seems really low to me.  There is clearly something I don't quite understand.  An income of 40,000 euros must be way up there in terms of the average French income, and yet it is only taxed at 6%.  What is it that I don't understand?

You are absolutely right about property taxes varying.  Size of house is not terribly important around here.  We got our house officially downgraded by one bedroom (long story) and that would have saved us 12 euros a year.  The rating system seems to be very mysterious (not transparent), even to those who apply the rules.  The variation in the Greater Montpellier area for an "average" indivdual house of 130 sq metres (foncier, ordures et habitation) varies from 1106 euros (small village called Montaud, pop 616) to Montpellier itself at 3201 euros.  The tax oriented lesson is always to move to a tiny village which is usually cheaper.  But then again you have to drive to get any shopping, facilities or events of any sort.  Swings and roundabouts.  Most people get worked up about (high) taxes, and so end up living somewhere that had nothing to offer in the way of diversions and entertainment.  There is loads of action in Montpellier in the winter, that's the "hot" time.  But in Montaud, I imagine nothing happens all the year around.

[Bob T]

LisaJ's reply is of little use when it comes to driving, she is speaking of a very individual situation. My situation is the opposite to hers, I no longer have to drive a 60 mile round trip to work and still drive the 12 mile round trip to the supermarket as I did in the UK.

As for property taxes, that varies region to region and house to house. In the UK my small bungalow attracted a council tax of £1400 per year, but my 4 acres with a 3 bed house here in the Dordogne was less than 450 euros last year. I also know someone in Sarlat who pays nearly 2000 euros per year.

My income here is about a fifth of what I alone earned in the UK, yet I have a much better life.

[smudger]

You'll die earlier though, of terminal boredom.

[LisaJ]

Well of course everybody's situation is different Bob; surely that goes without saying. In England I also did a 60 mile round trip to work, but the point was that then I was working and earning and now, like John, I am retired. All I would still say is that here in Normandy, where John is thinking of looking, most people would say they live further from shops than they did in England and are likely to drive more. That surely has to be true when you compare the area and population density of France with the UK.

regards

Lisa

[Benjamin]

[quote user="LisaJ"]

All I would still say is that here in Normandy, where John is thinking of looking, most people would say they live further from shops than they did in England and are likely to drive more.

[/quote]

Have you never noticed how little your retired French neighbours go out? It seems a particularly Brit trait to jump in the car every five minutes to go to the shops to buy the latest thing that you've just decided you can't wait for.

Your neighbours, on the other hand, will have set times of the week for going and doing their shopping, visiting the bank etc.

If you adopt the French system you'll find you won't be driving nearly so far as you do now so the increase in distance to the shops largely becomes irrelevant.

[Bob T]

Lisa, I was not trying to imply that you were wrong in any way, just pointing out that the general question of the original poster cannot be answered with individual circumstances. A good example of how individual circumstances can influence a thread is that Jude and I have an 1100cc motorbike each, these are not as expensive to run here due to the lack of road tax, no CT for bikes and insurance at 30% of the UK price, but the poster may not be interested in a motorbike, but by that sentance, I have implied that life is much cheaper here.

In general we do find life much cheaper here, but for many reasons, the main one being the much lower direct and indirect taxes. If I could have my RAF pension taxed here instead of the UK I would save even more.

[WJT]

I find it very difficult to do what Benjamin suggests. If I leave in the morning to try to go to numerous shops in a few different areas, I am always rushed to finish by noon for the two hour closing. Therefore, I tend to try to do it in the afternoon, I find I must try to accomplish as much as possible after 2pm when they reopen. Inevitably, it is not possible, so I have to plan on going to different areas and towns on different days using much petrol and time.

[LisaJ]

I think the problem is not really food shopping - we tend to do one market and one supermarket  visit a week (pretty much the same as our French neighbours) and we keep a very full larder and freezer to avoid lots of short trips. We find the kilometres happen when you need something specific; the nearest large town (50km) for good DIYstuff, ditto for a really good nursery, same for sewing supplies etc etc. I agree with WJT that it needs very tight planning to get everything you need in one hit and before lunch!

regards

Lisa

[Patf]

The last few posts illustrate how much we depend on vehicles when living in the country. Also if you are doing much diy you probably need a van as well as a car. Apart from actual building costs by far the biggest expense for us has been keeping 2 vehicles on the road.  We seem to have had more accidents and breakdowns than we ever had in UK. So the advice would be to keep a car repair fund going if possible. Pat.

[Cerise]

Benjamin - I have noticed how little my French neighbours go out.  It is one very good reason that I do not wish to be like them even when I am 95!! I like going out[:)]

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Cerise"]Benjamin - I have noticed how little my French neighbours go out.  It is one very good reason that I do not wish to be like them even when I am 95!! I like going out[:)][/quote]

Spoken like a true Brit[:D]

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Bob T"]If I could have my RAF pension taxed here instead of the UK I would save even more.

[/quote]

How can you live in France and not be taxed here?  If what SD said is right, and I think it is, you should be taxed here.  I ask because I have a pension too, and it is taxed here.

[BJSLIV]

How can you live in France and not be taxed here? 

I'm sure it is taxed in France.

However because the RAF pension counts as a Government pension it has to be taxed a source in the UK. It is also included on the tax return in France , but any tax paid in the UK is taken into account, and because UK tax is higher than French there is no liability to pay anything in France. Unfortunately there is no refund for he higher tax already paid in the UK.

 

 

 

[Benjamin]

Certain UK government pensions must still be taxed in the UK. It's all above board and is part of the UK/France Double Taxation Agreement.

Edited: posts crossed