Problems with Notaires and Immobiliers

[Snowey]

Can anybody please give us some advice, we are suffering from a series of really bad mistakes by Notaires and Immobiliers. We thought we had sold our house in the Gironde, and all went to the Notaires office on the 27th July to sign the first documents, a lady from a large immobilier, the buyers Notaire, our Notaire, the buyer, myself, wife, daughter and son-in-law were present. The buyer said he would only be giving a 5 per cent deposit, our Notaire said this was normal, but if after the seven day cooling off period he pulled out, he would be liable for the full 10 per cent. We had everything explained to us and duly signed all the documents, the buyer was a man of late fifties and on reflection was a real charmer where nothing was a problem and amid much giggling by the three French ladies present, who could not believe it was possible to be dealing with a man where problems didn’t exist, we were told that he was going to not only get the deposit to the Notaire that week but the whole amount. He also really wanted to make the final signing by the 15th September, the Notaire said it was not possible and we said it would be very difficult for us anyway but we would try and make the date as soon as possible, it was agreed that the final date of the 31st October would be put on the documents. Over a week went by and we had to go to the Notaires with the guarantee documents for the Piscine, and were told everything was fine and she had a lot of the paper work back already, so we started to organise the move, packing boxes selling a lot of our furniture, and my daughter has had half of her belongings taken back to England already, my wife and I were going to rent for six months to decide what and where we wanted to buy another property. Just before six weeks were up, the immobilier phoned to say the buyer had been pushing for the 15th September date, I said it was not possible, but we were doing well but had some more furniture to sell, the immobilier actually sent a friend to see if they wanted to buy some. I phoned the immobilier after the weekend to say we would be able to set a date for the 1st October, but the lady who was dealing with the sale was on holiday, she hadn't told me that on the Friday, I spoke to another lady who (that day anyway) only spoke in broken English, but I caught something about deposit. For some reason the next morning I awoke with alarm bells ringing thinking about this deposit, so phoned the Notaire who was on a days leave, so it went on another day, she then told me that the deposit had not been paid, ( I wonder when I would have been told if I had not have rang her), and they were having difficulty in contacting the purchaser and when they did he just kept saying it would be there the next day. The Notaire also told us that she thought the buyers Notaire had the deposit, and the buyers Notaire thought that our Notaire had it!! We now know through various sources that this man is known to be very suspicious, and have been advised to cut the contract. Can anybody advise us about this matter please, i.e. have we a claim against the Notaires for the lost deposit, as it has put us in an awkward situation (if they had let us know after seven days, we could have just put the house back on the market again. Also if we cut the contract will we not be able to claim anyway. Should the immobiliers have let us know as soon as the seven days were up, (they sound now as though they are wiping there hands of the matter). I am sorry that this has gone on a bit, but thought the whole story needs to be told to hopefully be able to get some advise. And also warn other sellers not to leave it completely in the hands of these professional bodies!!!

[jon]

From my knowledge of buying/selling in France  I can say that it sounds odd.Where there is an agent involved the deposit is usally sent to the immobilier....without that deposit ...well.

I am buying in the Gironde....where are you.Coulld you let me know ...perhaps privately who your agent is?

[Cat]

Any names of agents or Notaires should only be exchanged privately, by PM or email [:'(]

Thanks

[Nick Trollope]

Few points;

The deposit is/was never really yours - it would be held by the Notaire (or one of the Notaires), pending completion of the sale when the entire amount would be distributed.

The deposit is to give the Notaire something to hang on to if the buyers defaults. BTW, never pay the deposit to an immobilier, unless he has a secure account and the Noatire okays it.

You are not entitled to your 10% default until the buyer actually pulls out (outside the terms of the compromis), which is unlikely to be confirmed before the acte date on the compromis.

The compromis only becomes binding on the buyer (only) when the 7 days period up, assuming that they have not returned the withdrawl notice.

I can't see what the Notaire(s) has/have done wrong. If, when they decide that the buyer is in default (as I say above, unlikely before the date of the acte), they will (as they are required to) attempt to recover your money (the 10% charge).

Bear in mind that it is normal to hear nothing from a Notaire until they are ready for you to sign the final acte - in the meantime, you should be directing your questions to the agent, who should at least be in touch with his client, the buyer.

 

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I think your post would be more accurately headlined as 'Problems with relucant purchaser' rather than trying to blame the estate agent and notaire for the situation you describe.

Having supervised numerous French property transactions I know that in a few cases potential or intending buyers can pull out of a deal, and the situation is frustrating for all concerned. This can occur because the buyer finds he/she cannot after all raise funds (even for the deposit), or has changed his/her mind or found another property. Buyers - and indeed sellers - suddenly become very uncommunicative in these circumstances.

All that the notaire and indeed the agent can do is assume the transaction is going ahead in good faith, try and chase the buyer if there appear to be problems, and keep everyone informed as soon as it is clear there clearly is a problem. It is never a good idea to make other commitments -such as selling up, booking flights or a removal van etc - until everything is signed and sealed.

Looking at it from the other side, I have experienced several British buyers who have behaved in this way, and also British sellers who changed their mind about wanting to sell after counter-signing the compromis de vente! Financial problems or marital differences are usually at the root of these situations. One learns to accept them as part of life, maddening thought it may be for everyone concerned.

P-D de Rouffignac

[Snowey]

In answer to P-D de Rouffignac, we do accept a lot of maddening things in life that happen through no fault of anybody's, but to us there have been serious mistakes by people who are out of our control, when we bought our house we were told that we had to and we did pay the full 10 per cent deposit by French cheque on the day of the first signing! We understood from the Notaires in this case that this had been done and that the purchaser was going to put the whole amount in straight away as well.

Do you not think that the Agents should have followed up at least once a week to make sure that every thing was progressing in the right way, the only time after the signing that we heard from the Agent was to try and push us for an earlier date! They after all do receive a huge amount of money for their troubles.

It is easy to talk a good and sensible way of handling a move, but how on earth is one supposed to move everything lock, stock and barrel in just a few days before the last signing and also make plans to what you are doing in the future, 'have you ever moved house'?

In your last paragraph, are you assuming that we are blaming the French in any way, that is certainly not the case, we have had our share of dealing with a few British, so we know there can be problems with that, and the French builders we have used at numerous times have been absolutely marvellous. But we are led to believe that the French way of selling/buying houses is one of the best in the world and probably is in most cases, but when it goes wrong it seems pretty bad to us.

[virginia.c]

Snowey,  I can't help you in your present situation but I can say that I feel for you.  I agree that, from what you say, you haven't done anything wrong and have been let down by the agent at the very least.  All you can do is keep on top of everything yourself, keep chasing and then chase again.

I really hope you get everything sorted out to your satisfaction and wish you the best of luck.

[mint]

I don't want to upset you further, Snowey, in what is already a very worrying situation for you.  I do, however, want to say that perhaps you are asking too much of the agent that they follow up "at least once a week".  If that is what you wanted them to do, then surely it is up to you to chase the agent for news every week.  It's unwise to assume that someone will do what you yourself, in their place, would have done.  We are all different after all and we are competent or otherwise in varying degrees.

It isYOUR sale, YOUR life, YOUR move; it's a mistake to leave it all in the hands of others, HOWEVER well you pay them.

[cooperlola]

There's also no doubt that pestering works.  Out of sight, out of mind and all that.  Keep phoning, be really annoying, don't take no for an answer.

It's tough when it's not your fault but Sweet 17 is right - it's your future that's at stake here.  It's worth a few phone calls.

Bon courage.

Edit : You are quite right about the purchasing system. It's fine and dandy when it works, but it does tie you down and if your buyer is reluctant as this one is, it does seem very hard that you can't easily tell them to "go away" and look for another.

[Snowey]

Thank you all for your thoughts, advice and sympathies, but we are putting it in perspective, one of my daughters best friends is burying her husband today, in England leaving her with two young children, so have we got any real worries, No.

And you cannot realise how annoyed I am with myself for not phoning and pestering, I  am usually told off by my family for going over the top, they told me this time, 'thats why we are paying professionals to do it for us', and if I had been told, when I took documents for the pool a few days after the 7th day, that it is 'going well I have had some of the documents back already', but we haven't received the deposit, I would have kept phoning!

 

[Patf]

Snowey - my advice would be that if you decide to buy another house don't sign the compromis de vente unless you see the deposit cheque being given to the notaire. Having said that, when we bought this house we had arranged a loan for the deposit ( we were selling our old house) and the money wasn't yet in our account on the day of signing but the notaire agreed to hang onto the cheque for a few days before banking it.