French resistance hero Raymond Aubrac dies aged 97

[Quillan]

French resistance hero Raymond Aubrac dies aged 97

If you Google his name there are quite a few articles about him if you want to know more.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Quillan"]

French resistance hero Raymond Aubrac dies aged 97

If you Google his name there are quite a few articles about him if you want to know more.

[/quote]

A nasty communist with an agenda of subverting good gaullist values to the soviet stalinist ideology.

More recently a dubiously motivated support of the ideas expressed by Stéphane Hessel.

"What must be said" Gunter Grass.

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/Raymond-Aubrac-etait-un-agent-communiste_a573.html

[Russethouse]

 You are entitled to your view, but I didn't see anything in that article that would make me want to describe him as a 'nasty communist' - further more one has to put his acivities into the context of the times in which he lived.

[5-element]

Stéphane Courtois, who wrote the article in Marianne, is well known for his pathological, paranoid anti-communist views. Maybe he should be described as a "nasty anti-communist" - just read the comments at the end of the article.

But as RH points out,  being an active communist then, meant fighting nazi ideology. Which was as "bad" as being a Jew, a homosexual, or a gipsy - it led straight to concentration camps if caught. 

[Patf]

You're right there 5E - I had a friend (dead now) who grew up in Germany in the early 30s. Her father was a communist , and a Jew, and he together with many others was shot dead well before the war started.

She and her mother managed to get to England where she trained as a midwife.

[Quillan]

Trained to kill Russian communists as I was and a lot of them too it has been quite enlightening to live in a part of France where it is very common to have a communist mayor and local communist politicians. We also have a regional HQ for the party located nearby. I have also met and talked to older Russians who have first hand experience living under the communist regime there. Seems their concerns about who was going to do what to whom (like we were the aggressor waiting for the opportunity to invade Russia) and their basic worries about job's, housing, healthcare, education etc were little different to ours in the west. I think, like all political systems including our own, communism is open to interpretation and of course abuse.

As for this individual and others like him, well thankfully none of us have lived under Naz i occupation so we don't have a clue and they were very brave people regardless of their politics.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Russethouse"] You are entitled to your view, but I didn't see anything in that article that would make me want to describe him as a 'nasty communist' - further more one has to put his acivities into the context of the times in which he lived.[/quote]

Not sure whether you refer to Guardian or Marianne.

But I always assume that all communist agents were nasty.

If you have been following " Un Village Francais" series the mistrust between resistants answering to De Gaulle and those answering to Moscow was an integral part of some three episodes.

[Russethouse]

Marianne actually...

 As I said unless you are his age and had similar experiences I doubt if you, or any of us are really in a position to judge. History depends on where you are stood at the time.........

 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Marianne actually...

 As I said unless you are his age and had similar experiences I doubt if you, or any of us are really in a position to judge. History depends on where you are stood at the time.........

 

[/quote]

French World War II history is very subjective with lots of opinion and not much fact.

Courtois is an investigator with the CNRS with I presume some "historical facts".

As a matter of fact the Guardian states in it's article that Aubrac was a "Compagnon de La Liberation", even with live link to the website.

..... and was one of only around 20 surviving members of the Compagnons de la Libération....

I am a little doubtful of the veracity of this Granaudiesque fact, as I cant find an Aubrac...

http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr_doc/liste_biographie.html#A

 

[Russethouse]

 I can't see him on the list under either name, and the Guardian looks like the only paper (out of the ones I looked at quickly) to mention the Compagnon de La Liberation. Never the less both Sarkozy and Hollande have paid tribute to him, so he obviously respected for his past exploits whatever his politics (and after all isn't that what the fight was for, so people had the freedom to follow their political hearts and not be dictated to ?)

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Russethouse"] I can't see him on the list under either name, and the Guardian looks like the only paper (out of the ones I looked at quickly) to mention the Compagnon de La Liberation. Never the less both Sarkozy and Hollande have paid tribute to him, so he obviously respected for his past exploits whatever his politics (and after all isn't that what the fight was for, so people had the freedom to follow their political hearts and not be dictated to ?)[/quote]

While most french people will have heard of Moulin, I have yet to meet one who knew of Aubrac before his death.

Today it would be unheard of to mention that communists were communists first and resistants second.

There is a hommage to Aubrac starting NOW on France 2 so I 'll sign out for now.

http://www.programme.tv/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre-4325099.php

[5-element]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

While most french people will have heard of Moulin, I have yet to meet one who knew of Aubrac before his death.

Today it would be unheard of to mention that communists were communists first and resistants second.

There is a hommage to Aubrac starting NOW on France 2 so I 'll sign out for now.

http://www.programme.tv/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre-4325099.php

[/quote]

If you'd ever met me PPP, that would be at least one French person you know who is familiar with the name Aubrac (and not because of the beef).

Most French cinephiles will know of Aubrac, since the 1996 movie "Lucie Aubrac" (his wife, also a resistant).

I am sorry to have missed the Fr.2 programme.

[Hoddy]

The member of the resistance I know is a jew and was a communist. He is also a very brave man. One one occasion he and his four companions were ambushed by the milice and the others all died. He attributes his survival to the fact that, at eighteen, he was faster than the others.

It seems a shame to me that when one of these courageous people has died we are discussing his former membership of the communist party rather than celebrating his bravery.

Hoddy

[Quillan]

[quote user="Hoddy"]The member of the resistance I know is a jew and was a communist. He is also a very brave man. One one occasion he and his four companions were ambushed by the milice and the others all died. He attributes his survival to the fact that, at eighteen, he was faster than the others. It seems a shame to me that when one of these courageous people has died we are discussing his former membership of the communist party rather than celebrating his bravery. Hoddy[/quote]

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments Hoddy. Round here all the resistance was 'communist' and many of them were killed blowing up railway lines down to Clara where there was a deportation camp for the Jews. When the Germans gave up with the railway they used trucks with people tied to the outside when moving food, supplies and Jews around to stop attacks. The only way to stop the trucks then was to jump out onto the road and try and shoot the drivers from a head on position. Your life expectancy was very short doing this sort of thing.

The Americans sent some guys in to try and organise the resistance better one of whom was Lieutenant Swank who is buried where he fell, by the side of the road south of Limoux. As an insight to what went on down my neck of the woods I have given an interesting link below from the OSS archive which includes information on the communist resistance.

http://www.ossog.org/france/peg_kohn_05.html

Regardless of their political beliefs they were all very brave men and women.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="pachapapa"]

While most french people will have heard of Moulin, I have yet to meet one who knew of Aubrac before his death.

Today it would be unheard of to mention that communists were communists first and resistants second.

There is a hommage to Aubrac starting NOW on France 2 so I 'll sign out for now.

http://www.programme.tv/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre-4325099.php

[/quote]

If you'd ever met me PPP, that would be at least one French person you know who is familiar with the name Aubrac (and not because of the beef).

Most French cinephiles will know of Aubrac, since the 1996 movie "Lucie Aubrac" (his wife, also a resistant).

I am sorry to have missed the Fr.2 programme.

[/quote]

You can watch it on pluzz.fr for the next week, here is the link.

http://www.pluzz.fr/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre.html

The docu was done in 2010 and the autobiographical setting with lots of INA clippings frankly got a bit boring; OK he was then 95 so making something of a final personal testament rather than developing the nitty-gritty of the resistance, but still worth watching though.

My Marianne reference was purely made in an attempt to review the wider picture to complement " le concert de louanges".

Although he seems not to be listed as a " compagnon de la liberation" under Aubrac, even though being apparently one of the last 20 survivors...according to the Guardian. Aubrac was of course a pseudonym which he adopted after the end of hostilities, perhaps he is listed under Samuel which is his correct surname.

In my opinion the communists caused more problems to the occupiers, than the rest of the resistance movement.

The protestants were also important.

The catholics.....!

[Russethouse]

I didn't see him under the name Samuel either.....

[Frecossais]

What an interesting account of one young man's wartime experiences in France, Quillan. It's made very immediate because it's written without artifice, he's just telling it like it was.

That period of French history seems to fascinate us from the UK whose parents'/grandparents' war was very different from that in Europe, though no less traumatic for many.

[5-element]

[quote user="pachapapa"][You can watch it on pluzz.fr for the next week, here is the link.

http://www.pluzz.fr/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre.html

[/quote]

Great, thank you for that, ppp.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Frecossais"]What an interesting account of one young man's wartime experiences in France, Quillan. It's made very immediate because it's written without artifice, he's just telling it like it was.
That period of French history seems to fascinate us from the UK whose parents'/grandparents' war was very different from that in Europe, though no less traumatic for many.
[/quote]

Yes and of course we always think about the French and the French resistance where in fact there were a lot of very brave people in other countries. A very close friend on mine in Norway took me on my first visit to see the place the Germans shot his uncle in Oslo. His crime, stealing bread. His (my friends) father then of course joined the resistance there immediately and took part is several very successful operations as well as many minor ones and survived.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="Russethouse"] I can't see him on the list under either name, and the Guardian looks like the only paper (out of the ones I looked at quickly) to mention the Compagnon de La Liberation. Never the less both Sarkozy and Hollande have paid tribute to him, so he obviously respected for his past exploits whatever his politics (and after all isn't that what the fight was for, so people had the freedom to follow their political hearts and not be dictated to ?)[/quote]

His supposed membership of the Ordre de la Libération is also mentioned in the online editions of (the newspaper) Libération:

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2012/04/11/raymond-aubrac-est-mort_810888

and in L'Express:

http://www.lexpress.fr/diaporama/diapo-photo/actualite/societe/raymond-aubrac-une-vie-de-resistance_1103327.html?p=7

but both articles use exactly the same words, so one is probably borrowing from the other. Aubrac seems to have been on very friendly terms with de Gaulle, so if he was in fact not a member of the Order it is something of a surprise.

[5-element]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="pachapapa"][You can watch it on pluzz.fr for the next week, here is the link.

http://www.pluzz.fr/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre.html

[/quote]

Great, thank you for that, ppp.

[/quote]

I am really glad I watched that programme (1h40min). Apart from anything else, it is such a source of inspiration to see such a brilliant, eloquent, articulate 95-year old who lived such a rich, courageous life (whatever omissions or embellishments there may or may not be in the narration). The fact is that he, like a lot of others, risked his life many times, and there are many references to his many "camarades" who were caught, tortured, and killed. He never gave up his values and his ideals, and at that ripe old age, was still going around schools to tell young people about the French Resistance and WW2. The programme also gave a good historical background to those troubled, disturbing times. I grew up with adults who were continually telling stories of the French resistance, the STO camps, the exodus, their personal experience of the Gestapo, the Miliciens, the German occupation, so it is doubly fascinating for me to watch that sort of programme, or any Resistance-themed movie.

 

[pachapapa]

[quote user="5-element"][quote user="5-element"][quote user="pachapapa"][You can watch it on pluzz.fr for the next week, here is the link.

http://www.pluzz.fr/raymond-aubrac-les-annees-de-guerre.html

[/quote]

Great, thank you for that, ppp.

[/quote]

I am really glad I watched that programme (1h40min). Apart from anything else, it is such a source of inspiration to see such a brilliant, eloquent, articulate 95-year old who lived such a rich, courageous life (whatever omissions or embellishments there may or may not be in the narration). The fact is that he, like a lot of others, risked his life many times, and there are many references to his many "camarades" who were caught, tortured, and killed. He never gave up his values and his ideals, and at that ripe old age, was still going around schools to tell young people about the French Resistance and WW2. The programme also gave a good historical background to those troubled, disturbing times. I grew up with adults who were continually telling stories of the French resistance, the STO camps, the exodus, their personal experience of the Gestapo, the Miliciens, the German occupation, so it is doubly fascinating for me to watch that sort of programme, or any Resistance-themed movie.

 

[/quote]

If you want the flavour following the Village francais" series on tuesday on France 3 is profitable.

The INA site is also full of authentic historical film clips.

An example of relevant available material.

http://www.ina.fr/video/I07345824/temoignage-de-lucie-et-raymond-aubrac.fr.html

[Shoop]

Find this subject so intriguing the bravery of those people unbelievable, ive read numerous books on the subject and eagerly awaiting the arrival of my latest purchase " in search of the maquis" by H R Kedward. We,ve a house near Carcassonne which we use regularly, so if anyone has any suggestions of places to visit within realistic driving distances in connection with this subject i would be very grateful.

Steve

[PaulT]

In vogue at the moment are suicide bombers. Now, these know that as soon as they detonate their bomb they are gone.

With the WWII resistance fighters they must have known that there was a chance of being captured during one of their missions or of being given away by someone. Their fate would be torture possibly until death. Knowing the odds, I think politics has little to do with it apart from saving their countries from the enforced German 'politics'.

Paul

[pachapapa]

The thread starts with the word french...

so awareness of the division of france into occupied and vichy; the french empire under vichy, mers el kebir, the animosity between communist and " gauliste", barbarosa, etc ....may distinguish the analysis of the french case. 

Being a resistant in france was often a solitary and lonely task for a distinguished but relatively small group of exceptionally brave and courageous individuals; conversely the collaborators were legion and treacherous.