Verbes Pronominaux

[dylan]

Hi I am taking a French Language course courtesy of the French Government, through an organisation called A.F.P.A. it is a postal course, with a workbook and CD, all , obviously, in French. So far so good but I have reached a wall with the aforementioned Verbes Pronominaux, can anyone give me guidance on how to get a grip with this

thanks

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

These are what are known as reflexive verbs in English. In a way the English name actually gives you a bit of a clue, because the action of the verb 'reflects' back on the person doing it.

So, in English all the verbs where you do something to yourself are reflexive (or Verbes Pronominaux to a Frenchman). The 'self' bit in what looks like the object of the verb is the give-away.

I hurt myself. I asked myself. I picked myself up. He washed himself .........

In French they extend this a bit, with stuff like 'je me brosse les dents' (I brush my teeth) where doing something to a part of yourself is treated reflexively -- logical, but alien to an English speaker. They also use the reflexive in places we wouldn't as in 'je me leve' (I get up). Of course, 'I get up' and 'I get myself up' don't quite mean the same thing to most anglophones, in rightpondia at least.

Hope this helps.

I pinched the following from http://www.synapse-fr.com/manuels/PRONOMI.htm

Verbes pronominaux

Les verbes pronominaux sont ceux qui sont accompagnés d'un pronom reprenant le sujet (Je me lave. Tu te dépêches. Il se regarde. Nous nous regardons. Vous vous levez). Le pronom qui reprend le sujet est dit pronom conjoint.

Un verbe d'action peut se présenter sous trois aspects, trois voix : voix active (le sujet fait l'action, voix passive (le sujet subit l'action), voix pronominale dite voix moyenne (pronom reprenant le sujet).

De très nombreux verbes peuvent exister aux trois voix (Je regarde, je suis regardé, je me regarde). Certains n'existent qu'à la voix passive, certains, enfin, n'existent qu'à la voix pronominale (se souvenir, se repentir, etc.), ce sont les verbes essentiellement pronominaux.

Le pronom conjoint qui reprend le sujet est tantôt analysable, tantôt vague et sans fonction précise. Parmi les pronominaux à pronom conjoint analysable on distingue les réfléchis et les réciproques. Lorsque le pronom conjoint est vague et inanalysable on distingue les passifs et les subjectifs.

1. les réfléchis indiquent que le sujet (ou les sujets) exerce une action sur lui-même (Il se lave. Il se rase. Il se regarde. Elle se parle, etc.). Le pronom conjoint peut alors être COD ou COI (COD = Il se lave. COI = Elle se parle).

2. les réciproques indiquent que les sujets (collectif ou pluriel) exercent une action l'un sur l'autre (ou les uns sur les autres) et réciproquement (Ils s'appellent. Ils se cherchent. Vous vous parliez. Ils se regardent. etc.).

3. les passifs indiquent que le sujet subit l'action mais que l'être ou la chose qui accomplit cette action (l'agent) n'est pas nommé (La ville se voit de loin. Il s'appelle Pierre. L'or s'achète cher, etc.).

4. les subjectifs : le pronom est un élément totalement incorporé au verbe. Il s'agit surtout de verbes qui n'existent qu'à la forme pronominale (s'accouder, s'écrouler, se méfier, s'exclamer, s'écrier, etc.). Ces verbes sont dits essentiellement pronominaux. On trouve aussi dans cette catégorie, des verbes existant à la voix active mais avec une signification différente (S'apercevoir = se rendre compte, apercevoir = voir. S'oublier = ne plus penser à soi, oublier = omettre).

Un verbe peut avoir les quatre nuances : réfléchi (Il s'aperçoit dans la glace), réciproque (Ils s'aperçoivent sur la place), passif (La ville s'aperçoit de loin), subjectif (Il s'aperçoit de son erreur).

Les nuances des verbes pronominaux sont importantes pour l'accord des participes passés (voir participe passé des verbes pronominaux).

[Spongebob]

And don't they all take "etre" in the past tense too?

Spongebob

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Yup.

[Cat]

Reflexive verbs are also used when using what would be called the passive voice (when the subject of the verb is not mentioned) in english.  As in "that's not done" (Ca ne se fait  pas).

Or when expressing emotion, as in "to have fun" (s'amuser à).

Also when showing reciprocity, as in "each other", se voir, se dire , s'écrire... to see each other, to tell each other and to write to each other, etc.

EDIT, whoops, I've just realised that I've repeated what was said above, but in english.  Oh well, it can't do any harm.

 

[Patf]

Dylan - is your problem with these pronominal verbs because you haven't had a lesson on pronouns yet? Just wondering and don't mean to be insulting - Pat..

[dylan]

Thanks for the replies.  I think the main problem is trying to understand French grammar without a comprehensive grasp of English grammar.  To this end, I have ordered English Grammar for students of French. My level of grammar is obviously not good enough to fully understand this course, although it has to be said that the French guys that I used to work with probably had less grasp of French grammar than I have of English grammar!! Nevertheless, I must continue to try and study French to what seems to be 'A' level standard just to be accepted on a training course to learn  how to do the job I last had in the UK, drive a 19 ton lorry!!!! After over five years in France I am never surprised at the bureacracy, but one day after being told this I received a confirmation of my place on the course only two weeks after beginning the language course. However, we will continue to face all challenges and keep on keeping on!![:D]

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

dylan wrote: < I think the main problem is trying to understand French grammar without a comprehensive grasp of English grammar.>

Don't worry, most English people under the age of 50 know very little about grammar. The fashion in teaching changed in the early 70's and formal grammar went out of the door. I can remember having to explain the passive to a Brit with a degree in English!

Your book sounds like a good idea. Could you provide a bit more detail about it (title, author, ISBN...) because my wife is a language trainer and she often has trouble with students who don't have any idea of grammatical terms.

[YCCMB]

English Grammar for Students of French: The Study Guide for Those Learning French (Paperback)
by Jacqueline Morton

Paperback: 193 pages

Publisher: Hodder Arnold (31 Oct 2002)

Language English

ISBN: 0340809132

A few of my students have it and have found it useful. It's on Amazon UK but I don't quite understand what's going on there just recently. It's offering the book (rrp £12.99) for £52 used!!!!! Last week I was looking up another book for one of my students and it came up with a price of £90-odd and the rrp was about £9.99!!! I think there's some sort of decimal point problem!!

 

[Cassis]

CB - I noticed a similar price phenomenon concerning an English-French Food dictionary - still in print, available by mail order from the publisher for 22€ plus postage, but costing 50 of your English pounds and more for a second hand copy on e-bay UK (and an equivalent amount in euros on e-bay Germany).  Weird!

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Thanks, Croixblanches. I'll pass the info on to Mme IG.

Out of interest, how much demand is there for an experienced & qualified teacher of French to adults in the areas with a fair number of Brits? We'll be in north Morbihan (Brittany) in a year or two and she doesn't really want to give up teaching.

[YCCMB]

Did you mean ebay, Cassis, or Amazon? Is the whole problem mysteriously spreading?[8-)] Maybe it's part of this rumour being put about by the French that the stupeeed Eeengleesh will pay a premium for houses, so why not books??

[Cassis]

Sorry, meant Amazon.  Hit me over the head and call me a kipper.

[JayJay]

  You kipper![;-)]

[Cassis]

 [:D] [:D] [:D]

[mint]

don't worry, cassis.  it will be LOVELY when he stops!