90day law

[James2]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me if there is such a law, that restricts a non-resident to stay in France for a period of no longer than 90 days?

If so is it enforced?

                Regards.............Ray

[AnOther]

A lot of people would be deep in doggy do do if there were such a law [:-))]

With certain caveats, i.e. not being a burden on the health or social system for instance, as a european citizen you are free to spend as much time as you like in any EU country.

The question of residency could arise after 183 days but there is much more to determining that than just the number of days you spend there, ownership of property and where your main financial interests are would be highly influential factors.

Residency can range from being a very simple matter to a horribly complex one however if you are simply a visitor or tourist then days spent in the country are irrelevent.

[Will]

The '90 day rule' is unique to UK as far as I know, and there is no French equivalent.

But as Ernie says, the French residence qualifications, and application of the term 'domicile', are totally different from the British. You can easily be fiscally resident in both France and UK (I am) often meaning you have to declare your income in both countries, but the double taxation agreements will determine where any particular income stream or capital gain is actually taxed.

National insurance (in GB) and securité sociale (in France) charges are a totally different story.

 

[Sunday Driver]

The code de l'entrée et séjour des étrangers et du droite d'asile (CESEDA) classifies EU citizens who have lived in France for more than three months as being resident here and requires them to register with their mairie and provide proof that they have sufficient resources not to be a burden on the French social security system and that they have made provision for healthcare insurance. Anyone who is unable to fulfil those requirements will lose their right of stay.

 

 

 

[Will]

Has the requirement to register with the mairie now actually been introduced, SD? Great news if it has. Doing away with the titre de sejour for European citizens was a backward step in my opinion.

[Sunday Driver]

According to the service-public website it hasn't - and I'm not yet bored enough to trawl through the Journal Officiel looking for it....[;-)]

 

[Iceni]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

 Anyone who is unable to fulfil those requirements will lose their right of stay.

[/quote]

And then ?

John

[AnOther]

Are you perhaps thinking of THIS case John. The point there was that after 10 years of legal residency it is not possible to deport a EU citizen.

Going back to the original point, there is a world of difference between living in France and simply being there and in the latter case then even if a person stayed in the same place for more 3 months then why should they register with anyone.

That would be tantamount to saying that the maximum length of time you can be a tourist in France is 3 months !

[James2]

Thanks ErnieY

So all is well! and I can safely reside at my ` Mason Secondaire` in the Dordogne for as long as I want to!

Needless to say I am retired with a British pension, and of course paying both `Tax Fonciere` and `Tax Habitation`

 

                Regards.............Ray

 

[Sunday Driver]

"Going back to the original point, there is a world of difference between living in France and simply being there and in the latter case then even if a person stayed in the same place for more 3 months then why should they register with anyone."

Probably because the law requires them to.  Simply 'being there' for more than three months means they are living there. That's what defines the legal cutoff for residency.

Remember that British citizens are foreigners in France and the immigration regulations apply to us.  It's quite different to moving to Cornwall or having a holiday cottage in Wales....

 

[AnOther]

"That's what defines the legal cutoff for residency" with numerous

protracted debates which have gone on here over the subject of

residency I can hardly believe you wrote that [8-)]

So if your or my son/daughter/parent/friend comes to stay for an extended holiday after 3 months they are deemed to be living in France and must register, well I'm sure we can all see that being observed and enforced. Hey, why not go the full distance and have them give their fingerprints and DNA at the Mairie on arrival, at least then they will know when a visitors 3 months are up and when to send in the flics - and I thought Hoeniker was dead [:'(]

[Sunday Driver]

Your indignance demonstrates a lack of appreciation of the legal position.

According to the code de l'entréé.....

Article L121-1

 

Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, tout citoyen de l'Union européenne, tout ressortissant d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'Espace économique européen ou de la Confédération suisse a le droit de séjourner en France pour une durée supérieure à trois mois s'il satisfait à l'une des conditions suivantes :

1° S'il exerce une activité professionnelle en France ;

2° S'il dispose pour lui et pour les membres de sa famille tels que visés au 4° de ressources suffisantes afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale, ainsi que d'une assurance maladie ;

3° S'il est inscrit dans un établissement fonctionnant conformément aux dispositions législatives et réglementaires en vigueur pour y suivre à titre principal des études ou, dans ce cadre, une formation professionnelle, et garantit disposer d'une assurance maladie ainsi que de ressources suffisantes pour lui et pour les membres de sa famille tels que visés au 5° afin de ne pas devenir une charge pour le système d'assistance sociale ;

4° S'il est un descendant direct âgé de moins de vingt et un ans ou à charge, ascendant direct à charge, conjoint, ascendant ou descendant direct à charge du conjoint, accompagnant ou rejoignant un ressortissant qui satisfait aux conditions énoncées aux 1° ou 2° ;

5° S'il est le conjoint ou un enfant à charge accompagnant ou rejoignant un ressortissant qui satisfait aux conditions énoncées au 3°.

 

As you will see, EU citizens wishing to exercise a right of stay in France for a period over three months must comply with the above conditions.  Provided they do so, then their sons and daughters and parents are also permitted to stay.  Friends are not considered to be family members, therefore if they wish to stay here for more than three months, then they are subject to the same conditions.

Of course, as we are British and free to do anything we want, this won't apply to us, will it - the same way as the above healthcare regulation wasn't enforced.....? [8-)]

 

 

 

[Chancer]

So to answer the OP's question

Is there a law? - Yes there is legislation, although I doubt that it will be known by many excepting perhaps noire et blanc forum users.

Is it enforced? - No but perhaps the first time would be if a certain aging ex glam-rocker decides to take a 13 week holiday here [:)]

[AnOther]

What's that saying: An unenforced law (or is that a disregarded law) is a bad law !

Somehow I can't imagine too many quaking in their boots or doing an 'Anne Frank' over it [;-)]

[Chancer]

I wouldn't call it a law (I used legislation) its non enforcement is hardly a new precedent is it?

There was an interesting program on the chaîne parlementaire (channel 13 free.fr) which is being rediffused on 24th august at 09.55 concerning the hardships suffered by retired immigrants who have never taken French nationality, it would be good viewing for those interested in the "can you live on a pension thread"

Anyway it quoted some surprising figures of how many non nationals are retired here claiming the pensions of their home country but are living in poverty and not entitled to any other benefits, the figure for Paris was given at (I recall) 30% of all retirees.

The majority of these "immigrants" were Algerian, North African, Portuguese etc but British subjects were mentioned. There were representatives on the programme from benevolant societies that were lobbying on their behalf for a better deal, would they be doing that if they thought that these retirees who clearly dont have the means to support themselves, most of which have lived here since the 60's are breaking the law and risk deportation?

Answers on a postcard please [:D]

[andyh4]

Have the residency rules been enforced yet - not up to mid July at our Marie - when we informed the maire that we were now permenant.

 

90 day rule - does this not exist for non-EU residents who must have a visa to stay longer?  Probably does not apply to the OP, but just becuse he says Bristol is his location does not mean he is British any more than my posting Frankfurt means that I am German.

[Blossom]

Is there a recognised procedure for registration? What form should we ask for at our local mairie?

[Will]

I think we need clarification from the OP about exactly what was meant by the '90 day law'.

I originally assumed it was a reference to whether there was any French equivalent of the 90 day (more precisely 91 days) rule used to establish possible UK tax residence. SD, quite correctly, thought it may be the three month period in France beyond which non-Europeans must obtain titre de sejour (or EU citizens register with the mairie according to the forthcoming legislation). He later confirmed that this requirement is not yet in force for Europeans.

But it could also refer to the validity of the Schengen visa, which is 90 days, or even the proposed 90-day detention period for suspected terrorists in Britain... [;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="J.Rs gone native"]

The majority of these "immigrants" were Algerian, North African, Portuguese etc but British subjects were mentioned. There were representatives on the programme from benevolant societies that were lobbying on their behalf for a better deal, would they be doing that if they thought that these retirees who clearly dont have the means to support themselves, most of which have lived here since the 60's are breaking the law and risk deportation?

Answers on a postcard please [:D]

[/quote]

Anyone who has lived in France in a continuous and legal situation for five years automatically obtains permanent residency status and the entry conditions referred to earlier no longer apply.  That means the people you mention are not breaking the law and there is therefore no question of deportation.

 

 

[allanb]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]As you will see, EU citizens wishing to exercise a right of stay in France for a period over three months must comply with the above conditions.[/quote]

Not all of them; as I read it, any one of them will do.  It appears that if you have adequate resources and some medical insurance, you comply with nº 2, so you can stay. 

Being British is optional, I believe.

[Bugsy]

Re the "who will know if you're here or not " comment earlier, a little tale of relevance (totally true)

Some time ago now, during the transfer of my tax liability from the UK to France, I was asked by IRS to provide details of the visits I had made to the UK since moving to france, together with the length of stay of each visit.

I pulled together all the details of trips I/we had made, both by air and sea and presented them.

Some weeks later I received a reply that included a question "Did I visit England on xxxxdate?, (a date I had not included on my list.) as their records indicated that I had.

Further checks here indicated that I had visited at that time, but simply missed it off the list I provided.

Big brother is watching all of us and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply kidding themselves.

[brianagain]

[quote user="ErnieY"]... if you are simply a visitor or tourist then days spent in the country are irrelevent.[/quote]

Not forgetting that it is always necessary for any visitor/tourist (or whatever) to check their travel and or motor breakdown policies as the majority will only give cover for any single visit for not more than 90 days (or less in many cases).

Brian (again)

[AnOther]

[quote user="Bugbear"]Big brother is watching all of us and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply kidding themselves.[/quote]Undoubtedly so BB but there has to be some motive or cause and without that just who is going to be interested in someone who happens to spend 91 or 191 days in the country as a simple visitor or tourist ?

In your case there was, potential tax liabilities.

[Chancer]

I was going to ask if their could have been a potential CGT gain for the UK inland revenue in BB's case.

People that I have known that sold their business before emigrating have come under intense scrutiny but there were millions at stake, in my casethe sale of my business even registered on their radar [:)]