One spouse willing directly to other

[MrCanary]

I believe that it is possible to go to a notaire and create a legal document where the first spouse to die can leave his/her half of a property directly to the other.

Is it possible to amake these arrangements from the UK, either through a notaire or a UK based solicitor? And if so, any idea as to the cost please?

[Kitty]

Hello Compo

If you read this thread, you'll see mention of other threads that may help.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1262463/ShowPost.aspx

 

[babcock]

Sorry if I am going over old ground but does not the tontine clause only cover actual property, i.e. house and is their not a fairly low amount to which it applies?

[Val_2]

We did Donation Entre Epoux which gives the surviving spouse all lifetime rights to the property. All wills have to be made in France to be recognised here I believe as we were told at that time.

[Angelite]

I know the subject of inheritance has been discussed many times, but I have not managed to find an answer to this question:

Our marriage is my husband's only marriage, but it is my second.  My husband has no children, but a sister and nieces, and I have one daughter. 

When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back to England with the proceeds?  Or will one or more of the blood relatives own part of the property?

 

 

[MrCanary]

Thanks very much for the replies, but I could not find the answer...

My situation is that I my wife and I are in England and I have just been diagnosed with a life-threatening condition. I am not sure when, or if, I will be able to return to France. I really need to secure the property for my wife in case anything does happen to me. Yes, I know I should have done this before, but this situation has suddenly come out of the blue. I really would appreciate any help or advice.

[Scooby]

Sent you a pm.

Kathie

[MrCanary]

Kathie (Scooby),

Thank you very much for the pm - that is just the sort of information I was hoping to find and I will follow your suggestion. I have to try to arrange this at the same time as praying that I can come through it, but your message has certainly given me something to work on in the meantime.

[gosub]

[quote user="Angelite"]

I know the subject of inheritance has been discussed many times, but I have not managed to find an answer to this question:

Our marriage is my husband's only marriage, but it is my second.  My husband has no children, but a sister and nieces, and I have one daughter. 

When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back to England with the proceeds?  Or will one or more of the blood relatives own part of the property?

[/quote]

I suggest that you read this thread for more info. HERE

[parsnips]

[quote user="gosub"][quote user="Angelite"]

I know the subject of inheritance has been discussed many times, but I have not managed to find an answer to this question:

Our marriage is my husband's only marriage, but it is my second.  My husband has no children, but a sister and nieces, and I have one daughter. 

When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back to England with the proceeds?  Or will one or more of the blood relatives own part of the property?

[/quote]

I suggest that you read this thread for more info. HERE

[/quote]

If your husband has no parent living you will inherit everything even without a Will,sisters etc no longer have rights when there is a surviving spouse. If he has parent(s) living he can exclude them with a simple Will Olographe,leaving everything to you, which he can write himself( in english or french)--but best to have it drafted by a notaire and then copy, this is not expensive.

[Angelite]

Thank you parsnips, that has answered my question.  Neither of us has any parents living, so things should be quite simple.  We now know what to tell the Notaire we want!

 

[gosub]

"When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back

to England with the proceeds?" Not without having the correct marriage regime in place.

"Or will one or more of the blood

relatives own part of the property?"  Yes

[parsnips]

[quote user="gosub"]"When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back

to England with the proceeds?"Not without having the correct marriage regimein place"Or will one or more of the blood

relatives own part of the property?"  Yes[/quote]

Sorry Gosub, but you are not correct, I translate from the "Le Particulier" Guide de l'Heritage,Dec 2006--"When the deceased leaves no descendent ,the extent of the rights of the surviving spouse depends on the ASCENDANTS living at the day of decease;parents ,grand parents, great grandparents....In the absence of any ASCENDANT the surviving spouse inherits the whole of the succession".

The only exception concerns "family assets" passed to the deceased by his parents by donation or succession ,on which blood relatives may havea partial claim, this being a particularly french arrangement, it is very unlikely to apply in the present case.

[parsnips]

Sorry about all that mess on the previous post--I used "Chrome" and either I or it didn't work properly.----Now it's put itself right!

[Clair]

[quote user="parsnips"]Sorry about all that mess on the previous post--I used "Chrome" and either I or it didn't work properly.----Now it's put itself right!

[/quote]I sorted it out for you [:)]

[gosub]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="gosub"]"When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back

to England with the proceeds?"Not without having the correct marriage regimein place"Or will one or more of the blood

relatives own part of the property?"  Yes[/quote]

Sorry Gosub, but you are not correct, I translate from the "Le Particulier" Guide de l'Heritage,Dec 2006--"When the deceased leaves no descendent ,the extent of the rights of the surviving spouse depends on the ASCENDANTS living at the day of decease;parents ,grand parents, great grandparents....In the absence of any ASCENDANT the surviving spouse inherits the whole of the succession".

The only exception concerns "family assets" passed to the deceased by his parents by donation or succession ,on which blood relatives may havea partial claim, this being a particularly french arrangement, it is very unlikely to apply in the present case.[/quote]

She can not disinherit her child  and on the death of the husband, the daughter would be an inheritor with immediate effect without the proper regime being in place. If the mother dies first, then the merde could be heading for the fan.

[parsnips]

[quote user="gosub"][quote user="parsnips"][quote user="gosub"]"When the first one of us passes on, can the other sell up and move back

to England with the proceeds?"Not without having the correct marriage regimein place"Or will one or more of the blood

relatives own part of the property?"  Yes[/quote]

Sorry Gosub, but you are not correct, I translate from the "Le Particulier" Guide de l'Heritage,Dec 2006--"When the deceased leaves no descendent ,the extent of the rights of the surviving spouse depends on the ASCENDANTS living at the day of decease;parents ,grand parents, great grandparents....In the absence of any ASCENDANT the surviving spouse inherits the whole of the succession".

The only exception concerns "family assets" passed to the deceased by his parents by donation or succession ,on which blood relatives may havea partial claim, this being a particularly french arrangement, it is very unlikely to apply in the present case.[/quote]

She can not disinherit her child  and on the death of the husband, the daughter would be an inheritor with immediate effect without the proper regime being in place. If the mother dies first, then the merde could be heading for the fan.

[/quote]

Sorry gosub,

      I fell into the common error(for a man) of assuming that the husband always dies first. If this were the case the situation would be as I described,but if the wife died first you are quite right. One solution would be the "Communauté Universel" with" attribution integral", at least for the house, with the daughter renouncing in advance the recourse to the "Action en retranchement". If there were substantial other assets this might be easier to arrange, or if the step-father was definitely going back to the UK  they could agree on some form of equalisation under UK Law.Much depends on how they all get on together; they should consult a Notaire, including the daughter from the first.

[gosub]

Even if the husband died first, the daughter would still be an inheritor and the mother could not sell and do what she wanted too with the money, the daughter would have to agree to any sale and maybe pay taxes on her share. That's why, I said she should read the the thread about communauté universel to see if it was suitable to their circumstances.

[parsnips]

[quote user="gosub"]Even if the husband died first, the daughter would still be an inheritor and the mother could not sell and do what she wanted too with the money, the daughter would have to agree to any sale and maybe pay taxes on her share. That's why, I said she should read the the thread about communauté universel to see if it was suitable to their circumstances.[/quote]

If the husband who, has no children, died first, his wife automatically inherits his half of the house , she already owns her half; the fact that she has a potentiel heir,her daughter, does not restrict her freedom to dispose of the house, which she owns fully.

The daughter inherits nothing from the husband to whom she is not related.

I fully agree that they need to discuss the"Communauté Universel" with a Notaire, and especially with an ENGLISH FLUENT Notaire, to deal with the situation which would arise if the wife died first.

[gosub]

"If the husband who, has no children, died first, his wife automatically

inherits his half of the house , she already owns her half; the fact

that she has a potentiel heir,her daughter, does not restrict her

freedom to dispose of the house, which she owns fully".

If that's the case, then I am going to kick myself in the b*ollocks because I have wasted €420 and the Notaire is 'kin lying to me, also it does not agree with the things I have read about inheritance laws in France, I.E. that without any other regime in place. The notaire will consider indivision to be the default position unless instructed otherwise.

I know that the surviving spouse can live in the property for the rest of their lifetime, it's when they want to sell that the problem starts.

[Angelite]

Thanks again for all your help, the thing is none of us knows what is round the corner.  One of my concerns was that my sister-in-law's new husband wouldn't get his hands on our hard-earned money!  Daughter is no problem.  But we will definitely consult with a Notaire when we find a property (hopefully in the next couple of weeks)  so that we get things right at the start. 

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="Angelite"]

Thanks again for all your help, the thing is none of us knows what is round the corner.  One of my concerns was that my sister-in-law's new husband wouldn't get his hands on our hard-earned money!  Daughter is no problem.  But we will definitely consult with a Notaire when we find a property (hopefully in the next couple of weeks)  so that we get things right at the start.  [/quote]

If you haven't yet bought a property then you have the perfect solution available( with no extra cost)---buy in tontine! Now that the inheritance taxes have been reformed the house will pass automatically in full ownership to the surviving spouse,(whoever it might be) with NO inheritence tax--no matter how valuable the house might be. Any possible administrative problems due to the daughter's possible rights in the property will be avoided. Don't let the Notaire talk you into a "Donation entre époux"---this ,though popular in France is not the best answer for you.

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="gosub"]"If the husband who, has no children, died first, his wife automatically

inherits his half of the house , she already owns her half; the fact

that she has a potentiel heir,her daughter, does not restrict her

freedom to dispose of the house, which she owns fully".

If that's the case, then I am going to kick myself in the b*ollocks because I have wasted €420 and the Notaire is 'kin lying to me, also it does not agree with the things I have read about inheritance laws in France, I.E. that without any other regime in place. The notaire will consider indivision to be the default position unless instructed otherwise.

I know that the surviving spouse can live in the property for the rest of their lifetime, it's when they want to sell that the problem starts.

[/quote]

If this thread has done nothing else ,it has demonstrated to all, including you and me, that french succession is a diabolically complex subject, with as many possible solutions as family situations. One point I cannot  make too strongly is that people,however good their everyday french is should always find an english-FLUENT Notaire, preferably recommended by satisfied english clients; they should fully discuss beforehand what they want to do about their succession, and WRITE it down, don't bother with technicalities just tell the Notaire exactly what they want the end result to be. From personal experience assisting incoming english people I know that there are some truly awful Notaires around, whether they are dishonest or merely massively incompetent is hard to say, that's why recommendation is so important.

       In the case under discussion here,as  I see it , if the couple are in indivision that determines that 50% of the house  falls into each of their estates. It says nothing about how these pass on the death of one or the other. As stated before, if the husband dies without reserved heirs, as he does in this case, then the whole of his french estate passes ,even without a marriage regime change or a will, to his surviving wife, this now being a fundamental principle of succession law.

       However, the possibility that the wife might die first with a reserved heir( her daughter) has to be addressed. There are numerous ways to do this,more or less satisfactorily; if the house is still to be purchased ,the Tontine is now ideal following the abolition of succession tax between spouses.(see previous post)

       A great deal depends on whether or not the whole family are on good terms; if they are then they can adopt the ",communauté  universel avec attribution integrale" provided the daughter waives her right to an"action en retranchement" before a Notaire.

      If there were no agreement with the daughter,and the couple stay in "séparation des biens" the wife could give the"nue-propriété" of her half of the house to her husband, while retaining the "usufruit" (this is cheaper than giving the whole title for tax, but not for notaires fees); if she died first her "usufruit" would disappear  leaving the husband with full ownership.

      I'm sure a good Notaire would come up with many more suggestions.                                                                                                                        

[gosub]

My last word on the subject

"Purchasing in indivision is a similar structure to the default

common law position we recognise in the UK as a tenancy in common,

where each owner owns a share of the property and upon the demise of

the first partner the deceased partner’s interest passes to his or her

estate and not automatically to the surviving spouse. In France the

estate is devolved in accordance with French inheritance law, which

affords limited provision for the surviving spouse. Where the deceased

had children a proportion of the estate must pass to them, and where

there are no children surviving parents have a reserved share. The

surviving spouse has a limited entitlement in these circumstances.

Where purchasers are unmarried the situation is even more

unsatisfactory for the surviving partner as blood relatives will

inherit the deceased partner’s share unless other provision is made

taking into account any reserved heirs’ entitlement, added to which any

legacy received by the surviving partner will be taxed at 60%. As a

result of the forced heirship rules, only a percentage of a person’s

estate can be freely dealt with under a will. The notaire will consider

indivision to be the default position unless instructed otherwise"