Elle naquit , elle est née which, where?

[Helen]

Our local newspaper used Caroline 'naquit à Villefranche le 5 février 1793 '. It took me a while to discover that this was the passé simple (although the meaning was clear from context.) . I gather that this is a literary form but when is it used ?  If I were writing  'she was born'  in a letter rather than an article  should I use elle est  neé or elle naquit ?What about if she was born in 2008, does that make a difference? 

I'm hoping someone can give me a simple explanation. I've tried to understand it in a conjugaison book but the French explanation is beyond me!

[cooperlola]

Yes, Helen, AFAIK, the passe historique (which is what they called it in my day!) is exactly what it sounds like : the date is the big clue.  As a rule, I would say you wouldn't use the ph if the person was still alive.  So, the article uses it correctly, but it would be quite wrong for somebody born in 2008. Clair will be along shortly no doubt, to put me right!

Edit : Definition of passe simple from my grammar book! "est utilise surtout a l'ecrit dans des textes narratifs, des recits, des contes, des biographies, des textes historiques."

[Clair]

Well said Coops [:)]

The verb is naître, used in the passé simple tense.

If you want more details, have a look at this page: http://www.verb2verbe.com/francais/conjugaison/verbe-francais/naitre.aspx

[Clarkkent]

When I learned French at school in the 19... er ... a long time ago, I spent a considerable time learning and using the past historic. The subjunctive, in comparison, was skimmed over.

My recent experiences suggest that understanding use of the subjunctive is very important, it is used constantly in everyday speech. The past historic, in comparison, seems almost obsolete.

[Helen]

Thankyou Coops and Clair. I must say it seems to make more sense to call it the past historic why simple? My French lessons  never seem to progress beyond the perfect and imperfect. ( though one 'benefit ' of recent issues is that my reading comprehension is quite good now !!)

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

When I learned French at school in the 19... er ... a long time ago, I spent a considerable time learning and using the past historic. The subjunctive, in comparison, was skimmed over.

My recent experiences suggest that understanding use of the subjunctive is very important, it is used constantly in everyday speech. The past historic, in comparison, seems almost obsolete.

[/quote]How true.  I guess it was necessary when we had to read Hugo, Dumas et al in the original - to get what they were on about.  Like so much of what one learnt at school in those days, it was b*g all use in everyday life!  Happily, one thing was that we were (well I was) taught what the subjunctive was in English, which does not seem to happen so much now - so at least one gets the basic principal - even if I always forget the verb forms when I'm speaking!

[Chancer]

I have been reading a book (American author, French translation) for nearly 6 months now (compared to a few nights for an interesting one in English).

Nearly all of it is in the past historic or passe simple, at first the verbs were unrecognisable but a pattern soon emerged and I rarely have to look one up unless it is a verb that I dont know in any tense!

Some examples from just one page

m'etonna, m'irrita, pagayai, presentai, fûmes, fûtes, eûmes, ignorâmes, se leva, monta, vint, revins, traversai, regardai, representai, braqai; dirigeai, fit, appareillames, disparut.

Perhaps that is why it is taking me so long[:)] Mind you I am throughly enjoying it and it has cured my insomnia but the local bibliotheque no longer believes me when I ask for yet another prolongation, they have demanded to see the book the next time!

[Clair]

We had to learn all these by heart at school... [:'(]

[Anton Redman]

For what it is worth Elle Naquit reads like Latin to me. I know it is French but if I found it on a tombstone in Spain,Portugal or Italy I would not be supprised

[Chancer]

[quote user="Clair"]We had to learn all these by heart at school... [:'(]
[/quote]

 

My comprehensive school in the terrible 70's was called "a training ground for borstal" by the national papers, teachers regularly smoked cannabis whilst taking lessons, in the English classes we were taught nothing, not even spelling mistakes were corrected.

The school was so big that the teachers did not know each other hence the French teachers reaction (she thought we were playing up) when none of us could understand what a verb was.

I only began to learn the basics of grammar since moving here and learning French, my lack of education in the English language has been my biggest stumbling block in learning French.

[Anton Redman]

You have to learn another language in order to understand the concept of grammar otherwise you just speak.  I was so lucky in my education - tough as nails London infants school - which believed you could go anywhere if you worked.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]You have to learn another language in order to understand the concept of grammar otherwise you just speak.  I was so lucky in my education - tough as nails London infants school - which believed you could go anywhere if you worked.[/quote]But when we old f*rts were learning, one was taught English grammar, so at least you knew a verb from a noun.  Blimey, even gerunds - would anybody even know what they are these days?

How often do you see "I would of" written on this forum (and I've even seen it in newspapers!)?

[Scooby]

[quote user="J.R."]

Nearly all of it is in the past historic or passe simple, at first the verbs were unrecognisable but a pattern soon emerged and I rarely have to look one up unless it is a verb that I dont know in any tense!

[/quote]

All the french books (novels) I have read have used the past historic rather than the perfect tense - and I agree, the verbs endings are very distinctive and recognisable.  I also agree about the comment re the subjunctive - skimmed over but actually very important.

[Scooby]

This link gives a very good summary and explanation of the French literary tenses...

[Clair]

[quote user="cooperlola"]How often do you see "I would of" written on this forum (and I've even seen it in newspapers!)?[/quote]

In the Telegraph yesterday: "Kerry had falled out with the Clintons"

[Helen]

I have no problem with simple grammar; that was taught in primary school.  I even took (and failed ) O level latin and vaguely remember  gerunds, gerundives and other strange notions but at the time I didn't think  latin was important.  I can only remember very  basic tenses in French lessons .

As for English I can distinctly remember the English teacher announcing, with some relief, that grammar questions were no longer part of the 'O' level. (probably in about 1965!) Now I find I  lack the language to describe language. I have no problem using structures such as I should have had,  he had had,  or he was going to go but I don't know what these tenses are in English so it makes learning  French very difficult.

 

[mint]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]You have to learn another language in order to understand the concept of grammar otherwise you just speak.  I was so lucky in my education - tough as nails London infants school - which believed you could go anywhere if you worked.[/quote]But when we old f*rts were learning, one was taught English grammar, so at least you knew a verb from a noun.  Blimey, even gerunds - would anybody even know what they are these days?

How often do you see "I would of" written on this forum (and I've even seen it in newspapers!)?

[/quote]

Coops, do you think I am unnatural or what?  I remember years ago when my son was about 5, he ran into the kitchen with a stick (using it as a sword, I think) and said, "Fighting Martians is making me hungry.  What's there to eat?"

I promise you my first thought was, "Yippee, he's using a gerund!  How does he know how to do that?"  Sadly for him, I didn't think, "Poor child, let's give him some grub!"

Don't know what sort of neglectful parent that made me but I was a very GRAMMATICAL mother!

[Chancer]

For the benefit of someone who had a lousy education could you please indicate where the gerund is in the above sentence, and if necessary what one is?

Serious request!

[Clair]

"Fighting Martians is making me hungry.  What's there to eat?"

other examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerund

[Christine Animal]

We've both learnt something today JR, must watch out for our gerunds !

 

[Pads]

[quote user="J.R."]

[quote user="Clair"]We had to learn all these by heart at school... [:'(]
[/quote]

 

My comprehensive school in the terrible 70's was called "a training ground for borstal" by the national papers, teachers regularly smoked cannabis whilst taking lessons, in the English classes we were taught nothing, not even spelling mistakes were corrected.

The school was so big that the teachers did not know each other hence the French teachers reaction (she thought we were playing up) when none of us could understand what a verb was.

I only began to learn the basics of grammar since moving here and learning French, my lack of education in the English language has been my biggest stumbling block in learning French.

[/quote]

Thats just like the school I went to.................[:(]

Ater the first 10 years of my life being moved all over the world differnt place each year and being taught english by an american, then a german lady then an Indian lady. I came back to england in the 70's  to a comphrensive school, where the teachers didnt even notice if you wernt there, where kids would just get up and walk out half way through a class if they were bored and meet friends for half an hour in the toilets. after lunch the science teacher would be so pissed he would fall asleep in the class and we would be left to natter until the bell rang. I had a crap education, most of what I have learnt in life I have taught my self since leaving school, my french teacher cant beleive how bad my english grammar is, yes it does make french very differcult, but Im getting there [blink]    

[Pads]

edit sorry double post [:$]    

[Chancer]

Sounds very familiar Pads, maybe the same school?

The worst was the Humanities department which previously was History and Geography, in their infinite wisdom they changed the curriculum to Geographical and community studies and Historical and social studies.

The teachers were too stoned to teach the core subjects and in any case we could avoid the lessons completely by going out of school doing supposedly organised social or community work, I chose to stay in school for the lessons which were difficult because the teachers just did not want to teach the core subject to the few students remaining.

We soon realised that there were no controls over who was attending the lessons or outside doing social or community work, so for the last 2 years of my education I and a small group of peers nicked off all these periods and hung around each others houses smoking and generally getting up to no good, our absence was never noted.

All was fine until I took my exams, I was very nervous not having learnt any history or geography at all, I needn't have been as the questions went along the lines of:

"Using the data given draw a land relief  survey map of the Swansea basin area" (it was something like that and I am sure now that you believe that I am totally ignorant on the subject and cannot even recall the questions)

OR

"Describe how you helped out in the community".

The history paper had similar impossible questions for me but with the option of  "Describe what social work you did and how it made a difference" etc etc.

So I just did some creative writing relating some of the things that I had heard that others had done instead of nicking off like me, it was a challenge because our english classes were even worse but I am the proud holder of 2 grade B "O" levels in history and geography due entirely to fictional writing and a complete (then) ignorance of the core subjects.

When the TV series the Grimleys with Brain Connoly and Noddy Holder was on it was exactly like my school right down to the sadistic sports teachers.

[mint]

[quote user="J.R."]

For the benefit of someone who had a lousy education could you please indicate where the gerund is in the above sentence, and if necessary what one is?

Serious request!

[/quote]

Apologies, JR, just got back onto the forum.  Been out all day with my husband and stepson and been cooking most of the evening.

Clair, thanks for explaining.  Basically, JR, a gerund is a noun that is made by using a verb.  Thus "fighting" which is a verb but used in my example as a noun.

Eg Eating out is enjoyable.  So...."eating" (a verb usually) is used here as a noun.  Hope that's OK.  It's not Wikipedia but then it's a proper down-to-earth example!

Any more grammar questions, I'm the person to ask.  I won all the grammar prizes at my school and also at my university.  Not just saying this to show off but just to show that if you have a real passion for something you generally get to be quite good at it!

[Chancer]

Thanks for the explanation Sweet 17, like most things grammar wise for me it has answered one question and raised another.

You will have to bear with me and understand that I have never really thought about English grammar, but I have had to learn it to learn French.

So I am posing (french again) my question using a French verb, my confusion is when you mention the gerund  is the noun of the verb using "ing", I thought that that was the present participle and that the noun form of the verb would be a thing,

i.e. verb travailler, travaillant and le travail, which is which?

In English that would mean to me verb: (to) work, working and the work.

But as I said earlier grammar is yet another language for me to learn[:D]

Mind you its never too late to start, I left England aged 44 having an unclassified "O"- level failure in French from my school days and little or no learning since, I took an intensive Spanish course in Quito which gave me enough vocabulary to travel throughout South America and then I learnt the rudiments of Bislama (pidgin english) in Vanuatu before coming here and immersing myself in the French language, not to forget Grammar!