Dusse-je?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I came across this yesterday. From the context it was pretty clear it was replacing "quand même" but a quick scout through Collins Roberts and a couple of grammer books threw up nothing beyond "dusse" being the imperfect subjunctive of "devoir," a form not exactly commonly used in conversation.

Is this a common usage? Could other forms be used: Dût-il or Dussions-nous for example. The person using it was hardly the most pretentious but is educated. Unfortunately they are not around to ask at the mo.

[giantpanda]

Hi!

"Dussions-nous" would be basically the same thing.

Other solutions without the subjunctive would be " wrong" ( grammatically).

You can count on over 80% of the French population would get it wrong.

Yours,

giantpanda

[Cat]

Doesn't seem to be terribly common http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=18902&highlight=duss%E9-je

Even if I should might be a fair translation.

[Clair]

You'd have to be a very pretentious French person to find a way to use this form in an everyday situation.

For info: http://www.la-conjugaison.fr/du/verbe/devoir.php

http://www.leconjugueur.com/frtableautemps.php

[odile]

more like 99% giantpanda!

[Callie]

Perhaps not relevant, but how many English speakers know the difference between "shall" and "will" in the future sense ?

Or "may" and "might" ???????

Nous avons raté le train. Il aurait fallu que nous nous précipitassions ! (I think...... !)

How about this (even worse) :

Putain, on a raté le train. Il aurait fallu qu'on se précipitasse.... !

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Callie"]Perhaps not relevant, but how many English speakers know the difference between "shall" and "will" in the future sense ?

Or "may" and "might" ???????

Nous avons raté le train. Il aurait fallu que nous nous précipitassions ! (I think...... !)

How about this (even worse) :

Putain, on a raté le train. Il aurait fallu qu'on se précipitasse.... ![/quote]

As in "I shall drown and nobody will save me" and "I will drown and nobody shall save me?" I don't think that anyone is taught that these days, even if there ever really was a difference beyond that suggested by those determined to impose some kind of Latin-style discipline on English.

Thanks for the replies and links. Like I said, the chap whole used this can hardly be said to be pretentious and makes no other use of the imperfect subjunctive in speech (who apart from M. & Mme Chirac would?) that I have heard. Most of the time he farms maize. I could have asked him at the time I suppose, but I have found that making enquiries on the finer points of grammer halfway through conversations at the school gate is not condusive to getting to the heart of the local gossip.

But I was able to ask a couple of people at a gathering last night who shrugged and (effectively) told me that it was just an idomatic use that some people favour, generally older people.

It seems it crops up a fair amount in the "Asterix" books. I checked, and lo & behold on page 18 of my copy of the "Mansions of the Gods" there it is: "Je continuerai! Dussé-je faire mourir les escalves..." I don't why I didn't notice it before....And I get nagged for reading cartoon books in French beacause they are insufficiently educational!

[allanb]

For what it's worth...

I think the subjunctive is used naturally by most French people just as the grammar books recommend.  You don't have to be educated or pretentious to say "il faut que tu saches" instead of "il faut que tu sais."  I think it's only the past-tense forms that sound pretentious, and are hardly used, at least in spoken French. 

This means that sometimes you hear what sounds like an illogical conflict of tenses, e.g. -

Je cherchais quelqu'un qui me fasse le travail (instead of qui me fît le travail)

or: a line from a Brassens song -

Il a fallu qu'elle me quitte (instead of qu'elle me quittât)

I think these are both "normal".  However, I have a grammar book that specifically mentions the "dussé-je" kind of expression, without any indication that it's odd or rare; it gives the example

Le voulût-il, il ne le pourrait pas

- as just another way of saying:

Même s'il le voulait, il ne le pourrait pas

Thanks to all the French people who tell us what really happens in modern French.  Grammar books can't be permanently up to date. 

[Clair]

The use of the présent du subjonctif and passé du subjonctif tenses is nothing unusual in many everyday instances.

Je préfère que le docteur vienne chez moi. (présent du subjonctif)

J'aurais préféré que le docteur soit venu chez moi. (passé du subjonctif)

The use of the imparfait and plus-que-parfait du subjonctif is very old-fashioned and they are both replaced by the présent and passé du subjonctif in everyday conversation. I cannot imagine ever hearing either used (or having used either myself) since I learnt them by heart at school many, many, many moons ago.[:)]

For info: http://www.francaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-francais-2/exercice-francais-9123.php