Another French test

[Chancer]

I found this on another forum, its quite challenging as a test to establish your level but it certainly gets the grey matter ticking away and makes you think long and hard about some of the answers, I learnt a lot from it and when I have suitably recovered will try the other ones.

http://www.tolearnfrench.com/

Be very carefull to use the correct accents even when it does not relate to the verb being conjugated, also on some of the questions if you type the person (tu, vous, ils etc) before the conjugated verb it will mark it as incorrect even though you have correctly answered the question.

That is my excuse anyway for only getting 62 out of 100, it would have been 80 (honestly!) if I had been ar5ed to type in all the accents, it does however have a toolbar with all the accents on beside each question.

Give it a go I think you will enjoy it [:D]

[YCCMB]

I'm puzzled by the marking system. I came out with 87.5.....[8-)]

[Gardener]

Good but I seem to have missed some questions somehow, probably due to the time!

[Loiseau]

Blimey, that took a long time!

Well, I got 93, but only thanks to Chancer saying how important it was to go for the accents etc!

Fell down on "grand-mere" (I put "grand'mere); was careless with accuracy when putting sentences into passive mode;

and then did not recognise the names for some of those verb tenses towards the end, which I am sure didn't exist in my distant school days!

Have they got "tordu" wrong? They say specifically that the subject of the little story is a woman, so when she says "je me suis tordue la cheville" or whatever, would it not have an E on the end? It was marked wrong. :-(

Angela

[allanb]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Have they got "tordu" wrong? They say specifically that the subject of the little story is a woman, so when she says "je me suis tordue la cheville" or whatever, would it not have an E on the end? [/quote]

No, it's confusing, but they're right, unfortunately.  There are two rules that seem to be in conflict:

Simple case nº 1: she washed the window = elle a lavé la fenêtre

Simple case nº 2: she washed herself = elle s'est lavée

(because the verb is used reflexively, i.e. the object is the same person as the subject)

But "she washed her hands" = elle s'est lavé les mains.  

It looks like a reflexive (because of the "se") so you use "être".   But the logic seems to be that the object of the washing (what got washed) was not the subject ("she") but the hands, so it isn't really reflexive.  So lavé doesn't change.  So: elle s'est tordu la cheville.

I don't know whether that's a very good explanation, but anyway, that's what they do. 

[Chancer]

Interesting the mistakes/difficulties we seemed to have.

Grand Mère was one I got wrong because I didnt use the accent, although it was in the question! - My eyesight is poor.

The plus que parfait question I could not answer without a sneak at Bescherelle to confirm what the tense was, I still had no chance of conjugating it though!

The subject/object ones really got me thinking but i did pretty well.

The set of questions where you were warned that the person was feminine tripped me up, I realised that I only needed to consider this when she was the subject and then added an e to each verb ending in é, now normally I would not evenhave thought to do this, just as well as I was wrong in most cases. That was the only section where I could not with a lot of effort remember the rule/s that I had learned, perhaps I didnt cover it or had problems understanding.

I also masculised two nouns that I knew were feminin, oreille and armoire, by that time I was trying to be too clever, I knew that they would use the possessive pronoun mon, ton reasoning that they commenced with a vowel although I was never taught this so I assumed thats why, so I thought "ah they are trying to trip me up here, it must be un armoire and un oreille"

Congratulations to you on your good results and especially remembering lessons learned at school, I had to start from complete scratch in my 40's having got unclassified at O level (for turning up and signing my name on the paper) in the days when pupils were allowed to fail.

[trastu]

That was brilliant! It certainly did get the grey matter going.

The bit that I had to think the hardest about was where conjugated verbs are also nouns.

I also got the question about the male chicken wrong!!!!! Considering that we have one in the garden I should just go and shoot myself now!!!!!!

[Loiseau]

Thanks, allanb, for that explanation. It sort of makes sense. I suppose a verb like "se lever" or "se coucher" would have agreement then, perhaps.

Chancer, I nearly tripped on armoire and oreille too, as I also thought the questions might be being too clever for words. I had to sit muttering out loud, trying out the different possibilities, before - luckily - plumping for the right ones!

It must have been tough trying to get on top of it all in your 40s. We were so drilled in French grammar from the age of 7 (this was in England), that it made doing the test quite fun - just like stepping back to the weekly tests we used to have! Mind you, I never actually had to string a sentence of French together to deliver to a French person until I was 16, the first time I set foot in France. Today, it seems to be all speaking and no irregular verbs (thinking of my daughter's enthusiastic but ungrammatical French conversation), but that has its good side too..

Angela

[NormanH]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I'm puzzled by the marking system. I came out with 87.5.....[8-)]

[/quote]

Why does that puzzle you? [6]

[Patf]

Interesting but difficult.

But it made me realise my weak points (many) eg I thought the participle had to agree with the subject and it should be the object.

Also like someone else they've invented some new tenses since I was at school, and since our dictionary was printed (2000)

[Kitty]

Thanks, Chancer.  I enjoyed that.

[KathyF]

So did I. [:)] Got 79.5 and would have got a few more if I hadn't been in a hurry and so didn't check. At least two were marked wrong because I omitted accents on other words, though the grammatical answers were right. Like others, my tenses were my weakest area, particularly since I didn't recognise a couple of the French terms for tenses. Must try the seciond level when I have more time.

[Chancer]

[quote user="trastu"]. I also got the question about the male chicken wrong!!!!! [/quote]

Me too!

"Un poul",  what a coq! [:D]

I made another error in that section that I really should not have done, I guess I was concentrating on changing the form of the feminin noun and didnt stop to ask myself what do I call the masculin version.

[mint]

71.5 so I was Coq a Hoop as I only had a few phrases when I came here to live just over 3 years ago.

Also, not so pleased that some were spelling mistakes, like "cassette" which was in the question and I didn't manage to COPY the word![:$]

I think my progress, such as it is, must have something to do with my reading a fair few books.

[Chancer]

That was another point I lost for writing K7 [;-)]

My progress such that it is was gained on the pillow over a 15 month period and from the television since then, on a daily basis I never see anybody so never have any conversations.

There is an English guy lives not far from me, came over at about the same time as me and whist perhaps speaking more French than me initially he was well behind after a year or so thanks to my total immersion, a neighbour of mine spoke to him at a rédérie and said that it was very hard, he only had a few words of French and he wasnt able to chat like me. I was surprised because I knew he was working with French people albeit he tended to be landed with the British tourists.

Last night on Fr3 Picardie they did an article on a village that has been evacuated as someone found 30 tons of WW1 munitions while digging their garden, to my delight they interviewed this British guy as it is his speciality, he spoke confidently and in faultless French unlike 99% of the French that are interviewed and many presenters who cannot speak for more than 3 seconds without adding an affected "euuhhh".

Chapeau to you sir if you are reading this [:D]

[mint]

Chance, I have found that many people who learned French at Grammar School and can read and write it seem to have a problem speaking it.

So, I am sure that I'd rather be able to speak it, as you obviously can, and have a wide vocabulary than to be grammatically correct.

When I came, our own Clair told me not to aim for perfection but just to get on and speak!  As that was already my inclination, it was no problem gabbling away in ungrammatical and incorrect French.

As for the accent, I just try and ape the locals![:P]

[Chancer]

[quote user="sweet 17"].

When I came, our own Clair told me not to aim for perfection but just to get on and speak!  As that was already my inclination, it was no problem gabbling away in ungrammatical and incorrect French.

[/quote]

That is my saving grace and my greatest strength, possibly my feminine side showing through [:D]

My survival instinct is another thing works in my favour, if a man is hungry he has to find a way to eat.

 

[allanb]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Fell down on "grand-mere" (I put "grand'mere)...[/quote]

I would have put grand'mère too, if I hadn't read your post. 

I was fairly sure I'd seen that form, so I did a bit of research.  Apparently grand'mère was regarded as "correct" until 1932, when the Académie Française decreed that it should be grand-mère.  That made me feel better.

My source provided several other examples of the 'e' being dropped from grande in a hyphenated word: grand-rue, grand-place, grand-chose.

There's also an example (which I hadn't thought about) in my all-time favourite song by my all-time favourite French singer, Le Parapluie by Georges Brassens, which begins:

Il pleuvait fort sur la grand-route...

Of course you can't tell by listening to it, but I checked the text.

[mint]

Not logical I know but the way I remember this one is:  if petit-fille doesn't need an e than grand-mère doesn't need one either.

I have lots of illogical ways of remembering things which work perfectly well for me but I don't think they would make sense to anyone else.

[NormanH]

I had a look at it and it seems to have the typical weaknesses of these sorts of tests, in that only one answer is accepted

.I would have been marked wrong for Cette voiture' va être' vendue instead of 'sera', and I would maintain that both 'ces fleurs' and 'ses' fleurs are acceptable with different meanings.

In any case I would never write anything important in Franch without checking it on for example

http://bonpatron.com/en/

or with a programme such as Antidote

in English here

On the matter of accents I never understand why English people seem to see them as decoration.

They make a difference to the sound

the e is like the sound in 'but'

è us like the ea in 'bear'

and é is like the i in 'bit'...

3 quite distinct things...

[Patf]

Have you got a SE France accent, Norman?

I thought :

é sounds like the ay in bay

è sounds like the e in bet.

I think we were taught Parisian french.

[Chancer]

I agree that they are 3 distinct things Norman but I only agree with your explanation of è

But and **  bit sound completely wrong to me, not that I am capable of giving a better example.

I think it was correct for you to lose a point for saying va être vendue, as they asked for the future tense and what you used is an easier way of saying it, a cheat if you like, a habit  which it took me a long time to get out of and to start using the proper future tense.

Editted, A bit unfair because probably the question was asking for the passive voice not the future, what I was referring to was saying " je vais vendre" etc

[NormanH]

[quote user="Patf"]Have you got a SE France accent, Norman?

I thought :

é sounds like the ay in bay

è sounds like the e in bet.

I think we were taught Parisian french.

[/quote]

I don't think that 'Mère' and' bet' rhyme, but I do think that Mère and bear do.

the ay in bay is a diphthong with two sounds not just one...I still reckon that é is closer to the short i in 'hit' or 'bit'

But without going into phonetics there is no really accurate way of representing sounds. I was just trying to show that the accents in French are there to show the sounds, not just something decorative. Once you feel that they become essential.

[Chancer]

I did notice that amongst the accents in the toolbar, which were really to small for me to actually see there was an à but with the accent sloping the other way, does this exist? If so when do you use it?

I have an azerty keyboard but I cannot find that accent, was it a piege?

I have a load of dead bête d'orages between the layes of my ecran, while they were in the throes of death I found accents suddenly appearing that I hadn't typed and then changing from é to è in the blink of an eye [:D]

[allanb]

[quote user="Chancer"]I did notice that amongst the accents in the toolbar, which were really to small for me to actually see there was an à but with the accent sloping the other way, does this exist? If so when do you use it?[/quote]

It doesn't exist in French but I suppose the toolbar is designed to be useful in other languages which do use it (e.g. Spanish).