Is selling a house with undisclosed known faults illegal

[Steve]

Just bought a Chateaux in Allier, the seller insisted that the building was in good condition. But upon

close inspection it has become apparent that it was not. So can any one answer the question;

Is selling a house with undisclosed known faults illegal or at least grounds for legal action.

[mint]

Isn't it caveat emptor in France?  Did you ask specific questions about suspected faults?

[M]

Definitely illegal for someone to sell a house knowing that it had a serious structural problem which was not evident just by looking, and which they did not alert you to. The phrase you need to search for is, I think, vice caché. But proving it could be a lengthy (and expensive) process.

M

[gosub]

Try searching for vices cachés, here is one response

http://www.maisonbrico.com/index.phtml?lng=FR&srub=157&iart=2171&Vices-caches-dans-une-maison-apres-l-achat-

[Anton Redman]

If the faults are evident on closer inspection then they are not concealed. If for instance the seller insisted in front of witnesses that the woodwork in the cellar was sound but refused to unlock or claimed tihe key to the cellar door was lost then you might have a case but I think you are likely to putting good money after.

[AnOther]

Not forgetting too that the term 'good condition' is, in itself, pretty meaningless and could well infer something very different to a French person than an English one.

Others have said it though I think, caveat emptor, and unless something had been deliberately concealed, and crucially, you could prove it, you are stuck with what you've got.

As a matter of interest what exactly is wrong with the Chateau that has prompted the enquiry.

[Anton Redman]

Habitable is another word which seems to change as you cross the Channel

[AnOther]

Yeh, tell me about that one, some 'habitable' places we initially viewed you wouldn't even put you mother in law in [:D]

[Tony F Dordogne]

We bought a house which, after we'd been here for under 3 months, flooded and it became apparent that the vice cache clause in our insurance could be invoked.

That was in April 2005 and we're STILL arguing about it - not heard from the expert or the insurance company for at least 2 years despite letters (recommende) and numerous emails.  Our insurance brokers at the time don't want to know.

What is the vice cache that you have found?

Chateaux - more than one perhaps, they've all got problems?

[Pads]

[quote user="ErnieY"]Yeh, tell me about that one, some 'habitable' places we initially viewed you wouldn't even put you mother in law in [:D]

[/quote]

I would ......[6]

[Patf]

I wonder if the OP is genuine? He hasn't been back.

Surely he checked for himself that the "building was in good condition" or not. It's not the kind of thing you just take someone's word for.

[AnOther]

Only a professional is properly qualified to make such a judgment and I would respectfully suggest that eyeballing and taking a sellers 'insistent' word for it is not the mark of one.

It would seem then that our OP's adventure in France has unfortunately taken on rather more breadth than anticipated [blink]

[Anton Redman]

The OP received a fairly rough ride for a first posting. Probably his fault for not buying a hovel.

[Patf]

Perhaps he bought it on ebay.

[mint]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]The OP received a fairly rough ride for a first posting. Probably his fault for not buying a hovel.[/quote]

If he'd bought a hovel, he would have been able to see straightaway that it had many fault and that it was probably uninhabitable, wouldn't he?

Perhaps buying hovels is a much less risky thing to do than buying chateaux? (I speak as one who, as many here knows, bought a chateau [:P])

[Anton Redman]

As an ex owner of a near hovel I agree with you. Two hours to check the roof timbers. The walls have no obvious cracks, there is no plumbing or electricity. The roof clearly needs replacing and this is reflected in the price job done.

[mint]

Yes, just imagine all the extra work you'd have to do checking out a chateau.

There are all the turrets to climb into to check for wood infestation, the dungeons to crawl through to check for creepy-crawlies, not to mention the moat to swim through if you want to be sure it's deep enough to keep out the neighbours.

[Clair]

[quote user="sweet 17"]...not to mention the moat to swim through if you want to be sure it's deep enough to keep out the neighbours.[/quote]

Sweet, do your neighbours still qualify as "the great unwashed" if they manage to swim across the moat? [8-)]

[mint]

They need to do more than swim across the moat, Clair, they need to be taken through an automatic car wash.

[woolybanana]

Ah, that is the family then, Sweets!

[Steve]

Faults Many things, too numerous to list here but the main ones are;

The Roof Timbers & Lathes which were ALL covered up on the inside with Plaster Board.

Huge Structural Cracks in walls also recently covered up on the inside with Plaster Board & Rendered over on the outside.

Foul Water Waste Piped into a nearby stream.

New Wooden Floors Laid over existing Rotten & Wood worm invested ones.

So basically the previous owner intentionally cover up all the faults in order to sell. Just wondered if I had any chance of recourse.

Cheers

Steve

[Cerise]

The drainage, or lack thereof, should be mentioned in the Acte de Vente (says whether there is mains drainage, fosse or nothing) if this is blatantly wrong then you may have some recourse.  If it tells you there is a fosse did anyone get it inspected before the sale.  Not knowing where your drainage goes does seem pretty elementary to me - but having said that, I have at least 2 acquaintances who haven't a clue where their fosses are!!!  Did you - or notaire, or anyone - check these things before the sale?

[Patf]

There should have been a report on the condition of the woodwork too - unless you are in an area where this isn't necessary. If there were falsehoods in the report I believe you can have some redress.

We are trying to sell our house at the moment, and everyone who has taken a serious interest has asked for a ladder to look up in the loft, at the roof timbers.

[AnOther]

The timber report is AFAIK limited to termites, other infestations such as woodworm are not necessarily included unless requested.

From what you've outlined Steve it would appear that you do have a case and your next move might be to call in a professional to properly report on the faults. He might also be able to put a reasonably accurate date the cover up work which could significantly strengthen your hand.

I wish you luck but if you take it to law then I'd prepare yourself for the long haul [blink]

[Tony F Dordogne]

Steve, you must speak to your insurance company first to see whether you have any protection or support from them.  If so, they will appoint their own expert and will take things from there.

If you are not covered by insurance, you must be prepared for a very long and very expensive expert enquiry and that most likely to be folowed by a similar court case.