Misrepresentation of land sales

[Moon]

I recently bought some land in France that was advertised as having all services (electricity, gas, telephone, waste water, drinking water, rain water drainage) on the border of the land. This was also stated in the Compromis de Vente, but was quite vague in teh Acte de Vente. In reality, the nearest access for the drainage of the rain water was 30m from the edge of my property. I have incurred a cost of 12,000 euros to connect to this drain. The selling agent refuses to take any responsibility for the cost of this work. Does anyone know if have a valid claim against the agent and, if so how I sould pursue it?

[Pickles]

I commiserate with you on your problem. I think there are a couple of issues here:

Firstly, the terminology used is likely to be very important: as I understand it, if the plot is "viabilisé" then the services are on-site. Any other nomenclature would probably be determined to be not sufficiently specific, as other terms imply some expenditure to connect to services off-site.

Secondly, the agent may have been misled by the vendor, so you may be chasing the wrong person.

Thirdly, you have to weigh up the likelihood and timescale of a court victory (not certain and years respectively) versus the cost (not cheap) and stress, strain, aggro (high, high, and high) of the process, taking into account that even after a victory, the chances of being paid may not be very high - and you would have incurred additional costs. By all means seek a legal opinion, but keep it all in perspective and be prepared to cut your losses and put it down to experience.

Regards

Pickles

[Will]

You will probably find that the agent recommends any potential buyers to check the details for themselves. That's normal procedure in any country.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Whilst I have every sympathy for your plight, it shows once again that relying on documents, and their interpretation by others - often at a distance - is no substitute for visiting the site and determining for yourself  where the connexions are located. If you can't do it yourself, pay someone to do it for you.

Agency descriptions are generally qualified as 'not contractual' though there is a general duty of care, as there is for the Notaire handling the transaction. The words 'on the border of the site' could arguably be open to misinterpretation, and instead words such as 'close to' might have been more appropriate and alerted you to a potential problem.  The change of wording from the compromis to the acte de vente is also disturbing and should have flagged up a problem, before you signed the contract.

But as others suggested, all this might be hard to contest and take time, money and aggravation. I repeat, best to have visited the site and checked in person........ 

P-D de R.

[Moon]

The land was advertised as viabilise, but I think you are right that I should put this down to experience (a bad one!). I was hoping that there may be the equivalent of a small claims court that would make a quick judgement for a small cost............is there a Judge Judy in France? Thank you for taking the time to comment.

[baypond]

[quote user="P-D de Rouffignac"]

 

But as others suggested, all this might be hard to contest and take time, money and aggravation. [/quote]

We hear it time and time again. People rave about French law when buying homes, but the fact is that to rely on the courts to enforce law often seems almost impossible because of time, cost and where the sympathy of the courts lie.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Moon"]I think you are right that I should put this down to experience (a bad one!). I was hoping that there may be the equivalent of a small claims court that would make a quick judgement for a small cost............is there a Judge Judy in France?[/quote]

I'm afraid that 12K€ would be above any small claims service, and sometimes I get the impression that in France a "quick judgement" is considered to have occurred if both parties are still alive by the time judgement has been made. Look at any edition of "sans aucun doute" for examples.

Look forward to enjoying avoiding the next "gotcha" and to enjoying your plot of land rather than letting the past eat away at you.

Regards

Pickles

[Moon]

We did check the site before we signed and identified the position of the drains, but it was not until later that we found out from the Marie that the rain water could not go down the same drain as the house waste water. We then checked the network plans from the Marie which showed that the eau pluvial network was close to our border. It was not until the construction company started work, that we discovered that the plans were not correct and the pipework finished some 30m shorter than indicated. I suppose I feel frustrated because if you someone states in a selling document that a product or service exists, then they should accept some responsibility if it doesn't. Anyway, c'est la vie!

[LaBucherie]

Can't you just dig a soakaway, rather than connecting to the drain?

[Moon]

No, the marie insists that you have a "bac de retention" (a bit like a soak away), but it has to be connected to the main rain water drainage system.........like your suggestion though....would have saved me a lot of money!

[Gardian]

Whilst echoing the comments re putting all this down to experience, €12k is a lot of money and it might just be worth spending a little bit of time considering another option.

The Tribunal d'Instance (you can Google it for more info) is effectively a small claims court for up to €10k. You can bring a case for consideration and are not obliged to engage a lawyer (but it would be very hard if your French isn't good, although you could, I suppose, take along an interpreter).  Property disputes are part of it's remit - I know, because I attended a hearing recently.

Key to your case would be whether a crucial difference between what appeared in the Compromis and the Acte de Vente constitutes a viable claim. Perhaps a claim for a 50% split of the drainage costs incurred? French residents are apparently entitled to a free consultation with an avocat - your local Tribunal should be able to help you with this (there's an admin dept).  However, if you had to, it might be worth spending a couple of hundred euros.

If it was me, I wouldn't give up just yet.  Might be worth a try. 

[Moon]

Very helpful. Thank you.......and to everyone else who added comments. Cheers!

[Cat]

[quote user="Moon"]We did check the site before we signed and identified the position of the drains, but it was not until later that we found out from the Marie that the rain water could not go down the same drain as the house waste water. We then checked the network plans from the Marie which showed that the eau pluvial network was close to our border. It was not until the construction company started work, that we discovered that the plans were not correct and the pipework finished some 30m shorter than indicated. I suppose I feel frustrated because if you someone states in a selling document that a product or service exists, then they should accept some responsibility if it doesn't. Anyway, c'est la vie![/quote]

If I understand correctly, it was the plans at the Mairie that were at fault, not the agency selling the land.  An expensive and unfortunate problem for you, but if the selling agent was acting in good faith in describing the drain position as marked on the Mairie's plan, and the fault could only be found by excavating the land, I don't see how a claim against them could be successful.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Moon"]It was not until the construction company started work, that we discovered that the plans were not correct [/quote]

Hmmm - didn't see this till after I'd posted re the Tribunal.

Forget my suggestion - you're up the proverbial creek, I'm afraid.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Moon, our plans and the reality of how the house was built and the layout of the fosse differ.  There was no way of us knowing until we moved in and started to have work done round the house.

Unless you're going to go for some sort of vice cache argument with your insurance company and even then it may be very long, protracted and you'll get no result, I think you'll have to accept that this is down to experience unless you have a very high stress threshold and a lot of available funds to chase a claim but as others have said, you'll be chasing your Mairie/original builder and even determining who to chase is likely to be expensive.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Having read the additional information about this case, it seems that the Mairie could bear some responsibility for providing a plan that was either inaccurate or not up to date, on which a number of people relied in good faith. As a first step, perhaps you could have an informal meeting with the Maire or the planning department and explain your position.

P-D de R.

[Cat]

Something else that strikes me is that 12,000 € seems an awful lot for 30m.

Is that the total cost of the excavation/connection, or just the cost for the extra 30m?  If there is a long run between your house (or where you intend building you house) and the edge of your land, and the total cost was 12,000 €, surely you could only dispute the cost of the extra 30m?